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That is the difference between “we will” or “we may”. Big difference and does leave plenty of wiggle room.
We will suspend you or we may suspend you. I like the may better.
We still have a divide as to when the sale has consummated. At delivery of funds as the Wiki article says or at the delivery of the article to destination. That needs to be defined first.
As to T-Satt stating FOB destination. We sell the item when funds are psoted. The delivery is on us because we have been hired or sub-cintracted to deliver the buyer’s item to him because he has paid us to do so. They pay for shipping. They give us money to provide that service, so of course we are obligated to carry that service out and if fails we are on the hook, but that doesn’t change the fact, the object was the buyers at moment of payment.
The $880 printer I sold at the first of the month. Then the buyer arranged for deilvery. I kept that object, HIS object in my garage for 3 weeks before it was picked up. I was responsible for the safety of his object until he picked it up. That object was not mine because he paid for the printer the day I accepted his offer. If after 3 weeks I had done something else with that printer or e-mailed him that I decided to keep it and then refunded him, I would be the person to have broken the deal, contract or whatever we are going to call. It.
I don’t see how I could claim that printer to still be mine after I accepted the $880 bucks into my paypal account. FOB Point of Sale in my book. If my neighbor then came over and saw it and said he would give me $1,500 for it, based on how I understand what I had agreed to with my first buyer, I guess I would have to say sorry it is already sold. And if my buyer had emailed me to cancel after I deposited his funds, he would have broken the deal and would be trying to get me to take “HIS” object back and refunding him the money.
I guess as I said, we need to have a real legal, definitive answer to when is the object’s title of ownership transferred to the buy and then from that decide as to when a seller no longer has a right to do anything with it.
All of this is just a very, very gray area.
mc at mdcg
AdventureE-ThriftShift and T-Satt: Oh boy don’t you just love it. I pulled that link into MS Word and our User Agreement is 7,426 words, 45,674 characters, 198 paragraphs, 770 lines and 20 pages long.
At a quick glance, saw areas to arbitrate, Pursuant Statue Code quotes, the use of the words “will” and “may” which greatly vary an agreement, indemnity, Disputes, disclaimers, Holds, Intelectual Property, Listing and Purchasing Criteria, LIONS, TIGERS AND BEARS OH MY!!! and tons more. Got to love a well worded Agreement and would you probably think, worded in Ebay favor?? Duh! 🙂 But, really who has read all of it and who can decipher it.
WELL .. Yep.. ThriftShift this is your kind of swamp. Deep, murky and clogged with weeds. Hummm wonder what your service fee is, if we ever get shut down for some sort of wierd VERO or such, let’s go get ’em. 🙂 Just kiddin ya’ll. Just a joke….
As Father Mulcayhe [sp ??] on Mash used to say… Jockularity..Jockularity!! 🙂
mc at mdcg
Hey Jay.. I just thought of something about all these back and forth posts today. I remember way back years ago when the episodes were in the teens or low double digits and you said at the end of one of the pod casts. “Come guys, we haven’t had hardly any posts, will some of you reply and post”. Those days were maybe a dozen or two total posts for the whole episode. Well watch out for what you ask for, you may just get it. LOL… Now you have “tons” of posts every week.
I remember when you and Ryanne answered every post, sometimes within minutes. Now by the time you or Ryanne get to reply a whole slew up posts get posted. That is just so cool.
I also think you have said a couple of times, that it would be neat when the Forum could run itself with minimum moderation. I even noticed during this new house project that your frequency did diminish since you guys were so tied up.
It was even a few weeks ago you were asking for more detailed and in depth questions and topics. Looks like you opened up a good one. Remember the long “what constitutes COGS – COG Cost of Goods and Cost of Goods Sold long, long thread?Now that T-Satt is around that may be another good one to revist since Dec. and as T-Satt said “year end” is just a few weeks away.
But funny, you used to asked for more posts, now it is request to organize our posts, put in right catagory, and pull in the reins a little. LOL.
mike at MDC Galleries in Atlanta
Yeah as Jay says.. and we all are fairly thick skinned and Jay does a good job of letting things roll off his back and also he can give as good as he gets sometimes. But as he says, we are all open and it is about seeing things from a miriad of different perspectives and we have only had a few that were really mean and trying to create havoc and bad vibes. Those were a lot of the anonymous people back on the old blog but on the new forum and with Ryanne screening and everyone having to sign up, it is just most of those like us trying so thourh things out there on the table to talk it out and learn. I think Jay calls it, running this up the flag pole and seeing what happens.
In a since we are all in this “together”. many have spent many hours posting things here to just help. And if “coming from left field” occasionally, it is all OK. Remember as Susan just said “I am a piece of work”.
So Jay won’t get down. Actually we may be wanting to rent Jay house and come up and maybe help him with an inventory system if they have a need or desire.
mc at mdcg
Oh ThriftShift, where were you 3 hours ago! Would have saved me from a lot of typing. 🙂 LOL. Well that takes care of that. Didn’t think about the Buyer’s and Seller’s agreement, which yep, as you said we all agreed to when we set up our accounts, but no one except a legal eagle reads much less understands most of the time.
Thanks for the detailed post and clears the air on the “legal” issue of a cancellation.
Didn’t know we had a “legal eagle” floating around. Now that we know, you may get shout outs every now and then or we say, good question to ask ThriftShift!! LOL.
mc at mdcg
IP… guess that is what we all do at thrifts. We have found several items in the past year or so that was scribed “Tiffany’s” on the bottom. We bought for $2.19 and sold for hundreds. So, it is the same thing.
Also when I buy art prints, I know when I have a hundred bucks in my hand and it has a $2 sticker on it. I don’t do what the “American Picker” Mike Wolfe does and say, “OH it is worth a lot more than that” and then offer a lot more. I pay the $2 and smile all the way to the bank. So the door swings both ways.
Guess it falls into the category of “Knowledge is Power” type of thing.
mc at mdcg
T-Satt wouldn’t the “accrual” accounting method take care of that? Once we shipped we invoiced within hours. Then that invoice fell into the accrual of the final months figures.
Also our CFO operated as well as the IRS that as a manufacturer that anything that was past the 50% point of being made, meaning after printing and finishing, that it was not an asset but we could invoice and that became receivables. Then at year end was tallied as “receivables” to us even if still in house in the loading doc area. But I could be wrong and I am going back a few years now and maybe just can’t remember accurately.
mc at mdcg
Thanks .. IP. Then that settles that are far as the ownership goes and that the owner can do whatever they want legally until delivery is made. That nullifies my examples and removes Jay and Ryanne from the “most wanted list”. LOL.
Funny thing, my wife Susan read this and her comments were, I am over here photographing our Sunday Haul and I am over here wasting time posting on forums. Then said I was a “piece of work”, shook her head and went back to the photography booth, mumbling something about “I should be listing” .. HaHa LOL
Mike at MDC Galleries in Atlanta
Yeah, that was what I was getting at. I was not meaning “bad people”, just I think there is a legal issue side to it. It my previous business where we shipped multiple tractor trailers daily to world wide accounts our FOB was Freight on Board as it left our loading dock and entered into the trailer. But good point about where does the FOB start or end.
I have had to cancel before, but it was due to a breakage or “lost item” we couldn’t find. If FOB means that J&R retain rightful and legal ownership until it is delivered then they can cancel for whatever reason, even no reason and be done with it. But guess you can see what I was getting at. If the buyer owns it at point of payment then the seller has no right to do anything with it, except, deliver it.
According to Wiki … A financial transaction is an agreement, or communication, carried out between a buyer and a seller to exchange an asset for payment.
It involves a change in the status of the finances of two or more businesses or individuals. The buyer and seller are separate entities or objects, often involving the exchange of items of value, such as information, goods, services, and money. It is still a transaction if the goods are exchanged at one time, and the money at another. This is known as a two-part transaction: part one is giving the money, part two is receiving the goods.
So I told Jay I wouldn’t do it based on the bold info. above. I offered, they gave, I got and deposited, done deal, it’s his.
But still a very interesting scenario and question Jay asks.
mc at mdcg
Ok, not calling you bad. I said I think it was more of a business ethics situation not a “preacher / moral” thing, who cares about that. No, I wouldn’t do it because I would have never gotten suspicious just because of a quick sale.
By the way there are others on Worthpoint, but there must be something different about this one.
mc at mdcg
almasty… as I just posted. You are correct it is not about morality. It is about business ethics and greed. The sheer desire for more money at any cost and even if that means maybe gravitating into the area of unscruoplous or maybe even criminal activity, if it can be proven that a legal transaction took place.
Wonder what a lawyer would say to all of this.
mc at mdcg
Well.. think I will chime in here by way of coming from left field. Do you think you may have committed a criminal act or broached business ethics. Forget the moral issue.
Here are some examples.
#1: I have an object and exchange that for financial renumeration. At the point of exchange that is a legal transaction and the ownership of that object becomes mine. To take that item back without my consent might be called theft.
#2: I bid on 12 items at an auction. That jacket is one of the items and sells to me for $50. The moment that auctioneers hammer hits the table, that object is mine. Then I go pay for my goods at the desk. At that moment of object and the exchange of legal tender, the title to those goods become mine, no if and’s or but’s, legally all of those items are mine. BUT then I drive around back to pick up my items and I find only 11 of them and a note with a $50 bill taped to it and it say’s sorry we decided that we are not going to let this item go to you. At that point I don’t care what the reason is, I would call the police and report a stolen item. [I am just making a point here]. The reason of course could be that the auctioneers wife saw the jacket from the back of the aution house, looked it up on her phone, saw a real high true value and then called the auctioneer on his phone, told him about what she found and he went around to the loading dock and took the item back. Who cares. Legally it was mine at sale. He “stole” it back, and even if he gave me a flimsy excuse like, we couldn’t find it after we took it off the auction floor, or it was dad’s favorite jacket. Who care’s it was mine not his at that point. Your mistake my gain.
#3 Same type of scenario. I sell that jacket to you for $50, not knowing or doing my research. The buyer knows what it is from the get go. Offers me $50. I hand him the jacket and he hands me the money. Business ethics wise, that object’s ownership has now transffered to that buyer. H goes out to his truck and lays that jacket on the hood of his truck, then goes acroos the street to another sale. You then go inside your house, decide to look that item up and discover it is worth $100,000.00. So you run back outside. Two scenarios here. One is he has driven off and the object and the buyer is gone forever and you are out of luck. OR … the jacket is still on his truck, you see he is across the street and not paying attention. You take it back and tape a $50 to his car and go back inside. He comes back and his jacket is gone. He comes up to your door, knocks and ask’s you what happened. At this point everything and anything you say is just an excuse. The deal was legal and completed. You stole the jacket back and renegged on the deal. Very unethical business wise.
Now to the question of is an exchange of an object for money a legal transaction. I did some quick research and believe it is. As soon as the Ebay “Cha-Ching” was heard and the money went into a PayPal account it is the same as the auction gavel coming down. done deal. Finished. You either “honor” the deal or you don’t.
In just my opinion what drives the backing out of the deal would be if I was just over come with greed and decided to act unethically in order to remove the possesion of someone else’s property, cover my tracks with an excuse and then reap rewards from that greed. I would be very uneasy about it.
Now I am not saying any of this to cast any aspursions on anybody. Jay, you asked for opinions and this is what has come across my mind since yesterday.
If the shoe was on the other foot and you were the buyer in all 3 of the above scenarios how would you feel to see that object removed from you possession by any means and end up with out the object and your $50 back?
Also considering this I might ask, have you considered maybe sending that person that had an object removed from his possessionn and then resold at a large [rofit thus loosing his “opportunity” maybe a $250 offering? Sort of like a lottery ticket winner who gets the numbers from someone else?
Just saying… this is a very interesting topic and a touchy one. I would also think that maybe some research into what constitues a legal transaction and once I found out for sure, then yes, I would have honored my original deal. That is just how I conduct business. My dad was a minister and if I shake hands and agree to something, especially in exchange for something, then it is finialized and carried out.
Now I hope I don’t get jumped on here for just talking out loud and again, no offense or malice intended. Just an Arsinio Hall moment of thinking… HHhhmmm.
mike at MDC Galleries in Atlanta
Really great photos. Our store has a lot of Asian pieces and wife Susan is a big fan. She would love these old photos.
As far the what he is working on, that’s a crap shoot. Good guess IP.
mike at MDC Galleries in Atlanta
