- This topic has 13 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
I have a question on art and when to take something to an expert for evaluation. I went to a rummage sale in August at half price day. One room had more upscale items, and I purchased a number of framed art prints. I was told that a woman involved with the organization bought pieces for the rummage sale. She priced each piece at 10% of what she believed to be the actual value and marked it with a description.
I bought this piece that I think should be verified. It was marked “late 18th century print engraving by Giovanni Volpato”. The price was $35, so I paid $17.50. The value should be around $350. The frame is definitely not 18th century, but appears to be vintage.
Other prints by this artist listed on eBay do not have any COA as far as I can see, but I feel uncomfortable listing this as something so old without backup. Does anyone with experience in art have thoughts on what to do? Maybe Mike in Atlanta would have an opinion here? And where would I find an expert to do it?
-
For some reason, that link only shows the first image. This link should show more.
-
Getting an official authentication from some art dealer would be extremely expensive if you expect him/her to back it up with a legal document. Lots of auction houses will give free appraisals…remember that getting an appraisal is not the same as authentication.
As with anything on eBay, just be honest about what you have and how you bought it. Let the buyer be the judge. $350 for a piece of art really isn’t very much if it’s quality.
-
Thanks Jay – I guess I’m nervous about this one because of the age. I’ve had some ceramics that were a bit over 100 years old, but they really looked it! This print though is over 200 years old and doesn’t look all that bad. I guess that I can say “I’ve been told this is from the 18th century, but I did not get it authenticated” or something like that.
-
Hello again: Did you get told that the “scene” is over 200 years old, or that the actual page-print is 200 years old. Paper that is that old will start to have some characteristics that could be noted if you can get to the whole print by disassembly of the frame and matting. Also there are test that a museum can run to tell certain things as well as age dating.
Mike at MDC Galleries in Atlanta
-
-
Hi Sharyn: Ok let’s take it a few things at a time.
First what Jay says is true. To pay for an appraisal or evaluation it would be costly.
Next, this looks like a manuscript page from a book of some sort. Next if this is a plate pulled engraving there should a demarcation impression of where the plate was pressed into the paper. An engraving is usually inked intaglio, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intaglio_(printmaking) , which means ink pushed down into the grooves of a etched plate, then excess ink wiped off lightly from the surface and then run through an etching type of pressure press which squeezes the plate and paper together and that action transfers the ink out from down inside the groves out and onto the paper. This whole process requires downward pressure this in turn embeds the plate into the paper and leaves a recessed border around the edge of the image. So, from your photos, I can’t see that embossed edge. BUT it could be hidden under the edge of the mat.
Next you should look closely with a loupe, linen tester [I recommend everyone get one of these] or magnifier at 10x power or above 20x better. Much more than that will start to distort what you are seeing. We use 6x, 10x, 20x, 30x and a 100x microscope but for various paper inspection needs.
But that being said, now look at the lines themselves. You are looking to see if the lines have any structural dimension to them. Are they slightly raised up and off the surface? Use a strong light from the side [angled] to see if the lines cast a shadow opposite of the light. If they are raised [embossed up] and have shadows it is a good chance it is a true engraved item, etched down into a plate, inked intaglio style and printed under pressure to transfer the ink. The proper method.
So, what you are now looking for is if the ink is laying flat on the surface. [RELIEF INKING.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relief_printing This Wiki Links also show diagrams that are useful in understanding both of these inking processes]
If you can’t see if the lines are “solid and raised” then next look to see if you can see any small round dots of any kind. That would indicate a half tone reproduction of an original. But halftone screens are usually only used to create variations of grays along with solid black areas and lines in a reproduction. in high contrast graphic photography, line work without any shading can be reproduced without halftone dots.In true etching the variations of grays are created by a process called “cross hatching”. The scribing of various thickness of lines and the variation of spacing in-between them to create and fool the eye into thinking it is seeing gray. Use of parallel lines and perpendicular diagonal lines are used to create variations within solid gray like areas. So again, take your loupe and examine.
Next is to look for ink density. If under magnification look to see if the ink lines look very solid and a dark, heavy black. If the ink looks thin, transparent, especially in any of the larger solid areas, then this may indicate the plate was inked “relief” and not “intaglio”. Relief inking would be where the ink is applied across the plate and applied to all the “raised areas” not down into the deeper grooves of the plate. This is modern process of offset lithography, lino cuts, wood cuts and especially photo reproduction done on plates. Just like a rubber stamp, ink is “rolled” across the plate and the plate when press down onto the paper or run through a high-speed press will “transfer” that ink from solid high surface to high solid surface. You will not see any raised characteristics to the ink, no shadows from the ink presence, not embossed plate borders into the paper. Very low pressure is used. The ink layer will be very thin, and transparent. Most blacks will be more like dark grays.
Next the “type” Words and letters can be produced by both methods. Look to see if you see an absorption of ink into the white areas around the stem of the letters. Heavy, fluid ink will show under 20x power a slight “bleeding” of the ink into the paper stock [depending on the type of paper]. This looks like a slight raggedness around the edges. This indicates, an intaglio inked plate whereby a heavier amount of ink was “squeezed” into the paper surface. If the line structure is thin, sharp, crisp, then possibly an offset ink done from the flat top plate surface and transferred from a planographic flat surface to a flat surface. This is one of the reason it is the modern choice of printers because of the ability to produce extremely fine lines and dots [of course].
Lastly, if you can disassemble the piece and get it out of the frame and out from under glass it will much easier to examine it for the above characteristics. If you can you will also be able to examine the paper type and the paper edge. If you can and are interested, let me know2 and I will post for what to be looking for with regards to paper type, paper weight, edge construction, registration [alignment] methods, damage [foxing, mold, stains] and possible if it came out of a book and was bound into a book. But that is a whole other post for all of that.
Sources for hands on evaluation would be of course a local museum, a good high-end framing shop [especially if a member of the Picture Framers Guild of America], an art school print making instructor and of course a paid art appraiser or antique shop specializing in Fine Art Prints.
Hopefully this has helped you with this piece and armed you for the future evaluation of what you may be looking at and if you have something that is worth a higher investment into a piece for your inventory.
Respectfully Submitted and Kindest Regards,
Mike at MDC Fine Art Galleries in Atlanta
-
Mike –
Your technical knowledge on art and related subjects is just awesome! Thanks so much for your response.
Trying to go through your message, I cannot see an embossed edge, but, as you said, it could be under the matt. The size of the visible art is about 12″ x 9.5″, which might be kind of large for a book. However, it could be from a large coffee-table-sized book about engraved art or similar, so I can’t go on that.
I have a 10X loupe, but I can’t tell if the print has any structural dimension as viewed through the glass. I do see cross-hatching used to vary the level of black – to look like different shades of gray. I do not see dots. The lines seem dark, not transparent. I do believe that I can see (with the 10X loupe) a bleeding of ink around the edges of the letters as well as the edge of the drawing. The paper itself seems “grainy” not smooth like modern paper – not sure if that means anything.
As far as what I was told about the print, I did not talk to the person who had brought it in for the rummage sale. There was a note on the piece explaining what it was, and I typed out that information in my first comment above. The person I did talk to just told me how they obtained many of the items in that room and how they were priced.
I think I need to take this print apart now that you’ve given me all this information. I don’t have the time to do it today. I need to get through a bunch of other art before I can look further. My goal will be to get to it on Friday or Monday. I’ll take a closer look and come back to this forum topic then.
-
-
Unfortunately, I have to get dinner on the table so I can’t delve into it right now. If it were me, the first thing I’d do is deal with the text at the bottom of the page; I’d both Google the text as-is (to see if a Google book or other digitized text comes up) and I’d also enter it into Google translate to see what it says.
I found a similar scene depicted in another engraving by Volpato after a different work by Joan Baptista Natali, here:
And then got another hit here:
It looks like maybe there was a 1768 work entitled “Antichità di Pozzuoli = Puteolanae antiquitates” perhaps by Paolo Antonio Paoli, and this might be a page from it?http://www.worldcat.org/title/antichita-di-pozzuoli-puteolanae-antiquitates/oclc/4863500
Last quick thought — no, don’t shell out to get it authenticated, at least not until you’ve done major research on your own and have a reasonable idea of its value. This could be good, because it’s an interesting subject, but I’ve learned the hard way that old, even very old, doesn’t always mean valuable. Not saying it’s not valuable — it very well could be. But don’t rush off to authenticate without putting in the time yourself first.
-
This might be a copy of the book for sale. Publication date is different.
Okay, dinner.
https://www.abebooks.com/ANTICHITA-POZZUOLI-BAJA-CUMA-bound-MORGHEN/13345552680/bd
-
OK – Sorry that I wasn’t able to post this until today. We have a family event coming up this weekend, and I’ve been busy with last minute planning.
I pulled apart the frame & print and took several photos. Here they are:
https://imgur.com/a/pIYxQI did find the embossing Mike mentioned – I took several photos showing the ridge along the edge (which was behind the matt when framed).
I tried to take a few photos up close with a strong flashlight showing areas where I could actually see (and feel) slight ridges to the ink.
I also showed the paper itself and some of the aging spots (I assume mold?).
Another important detail is the left hand side is not straight. It appears to be cut. I think that Habnab hit it on the spot – this was a page in a book of engravings that someone cut out and framed. Still late 18th century, and I believe a intaglio print per Mike’s links and descriptions. Thanks so much Habnab for the great investigative work!
Also – Someone posted about value in this topic, but I don’t see the comment now. But, in response, I know that something old doesn’t mean it is valuable. I bought some ironstone / transfer-ware last year. I wasn’t so surprised at the reasonable/low prices, but I was very surprised that almost all of it was over 100 years old!
Back on topic: Now I will need to reassemble the framing. This leads to another question. I will need to remove the tape and then re-tape it back onto the matt. I did some research and Lineco linen tape appears to be the correct neutral PH / acid-free tape required for art. Comments?
And, sort of off-topic again, I have a vintage print that someone framed in a non-acid free matt. The print has a yellowed border along the matt edge. Then, the tape loosened on one side, and the print moved creating a second skewed yellowed border. In spite of all this, it is a nice print from a known artist with a low number. Is there any way to remove the yellowed lines? I assume not.
-
First let me say.. Great job Sharyn in doing the investigative leg work on this “etching”. Yes it is an etching from what I see, inked intaglio. [Lot of hard hand work doing it this way].
You found some of the elements I was describing. Those add to the piece. Do not be in such a hurry to re-assemble the frame. There are buyers for etchings that want to see everything you just had to uncover to see for yourself. If I were a buyer I would want it unframed as you have it now. Then knowing what I know about conservation, I would have it framed myself or do it myself. i would “float” the whole page in a french cut double mat. I would let the whole page show so that the embossed plate edge is showing along with the left cut edge.
Other items to note. That light speckled look is “foxing”. Look it up on Wiki. The small round dark spots are most likely mold. The trick here is to discern if there is any real higher dollar value before proceeding. The foxing and mold can be removed or greatly diminished in a bath of chemicals but would need to be done by a conservator. Pricey for a none high dollar piece, which it may not be since it is indeed “cut” out of a book. But, who knows.
You are correct in the approach of a neutral Ph and acid free mat board, backer board and tape. The adhesive is highly acidic and also crystilizes with age and rubs off as dust as it crumbles. It also looses it holding power and as you mentioned prints will drop on one side or slide all the way down in a mat.
Yes the sun has done it’s damage on the other piece along with the high acid content that was probably in that cheap mat. Those bleached lines – marks from the mat are burned into the paper [so to speak] and/or interacted with the paper and mat chemicals and probably never come out.
Last note.. Ebay is not a very good market for works of art that are fine art or etchings. Most buyers are just unaware of the value of true art or the time it takes to create. Yes, digital Giclee prints are the norm and most folks call art now home decor or pretty pictures. But will leave that subject to another time.
Just my opinion, but if this was mine, I would take it to my auction house I visit fairly regularly, leave the print as is, type up what you know about it [provinance] also explaining the paper, plate inking, etc. talk with my auctioneer, determine a “reserve price” for it and let it go through the local auction process before I throw it up on Ebay. But just my thoughts.
mike at MDC Galleries and Fine Art in Atlanta
-
-
Mike – Thanks for the confirmation. I enjoy learning, investigating, and problem solving, so the process to figure this one out was very interesting.
For the print with the yellowing, I will just re-frame it with the cheap matt. The damage is done. I only paid $5 for it, so I should still be able to make good money.
I took a class in framing many years ago, and I do remember learning about acid-free materials, how to cut matts, make frames, etc. I’ll go and buy that special tape. I’ll also need some double-side archival-type tape for a few mounted art pieces I purchased (3-D layered type) that are also moving around in their frames.
For the print engraving, I will contact my regular auction house and see what they say. I’m always in their box lot area where things go in bulk for cheap. However, they sell higher end items in other rooms. I’ll have to make a judgement call on whether it is the right auction house or not. I will be there on Oct 12 for their discovery sale.
I do see similar items listed, including ones listed for $400 or more, but none at that price point that sold, at least not for the past three months.
-
Local auction house for sure. This is not a Sotheby or high end NY art auction house piece but mabe a nicer. higher end antique auction house in a metro area around you. We have a couple of small ones around our area but not for fine art. If you can’t hunt with it, build with it or hook it to a tractor it won’t sell. LOL 🙂 [catch my drift]. Probably in trouble with that comment. But…
mike in Atlanta
-
The place I go to is called Bodner’s, which is located in Edison, NJ. It’s definitely considered part of the NJ/NY/CT metro area. Edison itself is rather built up.
My only hesitation is that I buy some good stuff there really cheap. I’d rather try my luck with eBay than sell this print for cheap. But, like I said, I don’t go to the higher end rooms, and I usually leave in the early afternoon before my kids get home.
-
-
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.