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So I think I found 3 1977 Lithographed signed and numbered by Dali himself. How does one go about authenticating and valuing. I realize that a lithograph isn’t going to net a fortune but the prices on ebay have a pretty wide swing (100s to just under 1000).
Who knows about art?
https://imgur.com/4fXyQ24
https://imgur.com/cStsJ6A
https://imgur.com/tSOdVBc
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Yeah I think its pretty real. The 1977 DalArt embosse was hidden under the matte. If this is a forgery, it’s a good one!
There was a 4th print that was slightly damaged so I left it behind. Once I realized what I had was probably legit, I went back to the thrift store. In my 45 minute absense, someone had purchased #4.
I’ll list for $1,500.00 and see what people start offering.
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Howdy: I saw this post a few days ago, but was tied up so I didn’t have the time to respond.
First let me say, that Jay would kill me if I re-posted my previous posts on art topics, which he calls my “giant walls of texts”. 🙂
Here is a tip for you that will put some real knowledge behind your research. Then we can talk again after you have digested the data and done some testing and exploration. In other words I am giving you some homework. 🙂
Go to the SL search bar and enter the word Serigraph do a search and read, then enter photo mechanical reproduction, search again and read those posts. Then read my posts over the last several years where I have addressed fine art prints, how to tell the differences in fine art prints from photo mechanical lithographs vs. handmade [pulled] stone lithographs.
Conduct each of my suggested tests and apply them to your print. These posts are excerpts from some of the collegiate classes I taught at the University of Hartford’s Fine Art College. I have a Master’s degree in Fine art specializing in fine art prints and am a Master Print Maker of Serigraphs of which I too can chop mark editions I print for other artist who commission me to make print editions for them. Also was part owner of a Fine Art Publishing Company for decades and am now retired.
After you conduct your checks I outline come back here and I will expand more on your findings.
At first glance I think you have a Serigraph and not a Stone Litho. You will also know if you have a photo mechanical litho. I don’t think so, but you check anyway.
Next see if you can see all four edges of the paper underneath the mat. If it is a full deckle edge on all 4 sides, I can tell you even more about it. Looks like either Arches or Rives BFK paper from what little I can see of the paper, maybe an 80lb. or 90 lb. cover weight.
Very common for a real fine art publisher to “Chop” their prints especially if in small / short run editions. Which is what you have.
You have the 88th print out of a print run edition of 150. That is a perfect size to keep the value higher. Large runs lower the value.
After you do your checks as per some of my earlier posts, we can discuss color register, color sequencing, over lay and try to establish the technique used.
Hand pulled stone lithography as a fine art print is very labor intensive and usually does not produce the hard edge definition to the color lay down as I see, but Serigraphy [silk screen printing does].One thing that bothers me is the two different densities of darkness of the lead pencils used in the numbering sequence as compared to the signature. this may indicate that the prints were all numbered at one time using one pencil, then the signature at another time either earlier or later with a different hardness of lead in the pencil, being it is lighter. From as much as I can see in examining the numbers and signature, from just these photos, it does seem that the signature and numbering are real and not printed in the plate. The overlap and density changes at the junctures of overlap seem to substantiate that.
More photos would certainly help me to give you more details. Close up of the edges of the image where I can see the alignment of colors, several more close ups of the image area where there is color on the sheet by itself and of areas where the colors overlap. The edges of the physical print itself, and of course shoots out from under the glass.
Good luck to you and looking forward to hearing what more you can find out and report back.
Kindest Regards,
Mike at MDC Concepts, Inc.
MDC Galleries and Fine Art
Collins Creek Collections
SmartParts Small Equipment -
WOW – Thanks wall of text. I will do my homework and get back to you – but to answer a few questions. There are 3 prints and the signatures varies slightly on each one, so it’s probably not a reproduced signature. I think the variation in pencil density is just my photography but I will get back to you on that.
thanks for this detailed info – I am going to hit the books!
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Professor MDC,
I did my homework. Well, I tried. The search function on WordPress isn’t as intuitive as one would hope. But I did google and research the terms you put forth in your previous posts.
This is my favorite part of scavaging. I learn something new (and completely random) every day. Who knew deckle was even a word?
There has been a new development in this story. When I first picked up these prints from Goodwill, I wasn’t sure the signature was authentic, the frames looked like crap, and one of the four pieces had some water damage on the matt. Not wanting to spend the extra $20.00, I left one of the three behind. oops.
Once I got home and realized what I had, I rushed back to Goodwill, and the 4th print was already gone.
Just this afternoon, I am in Goodwill, and I hear this guy boasting about the Dali lithograph he picked up. Sure enough, it the 4th in the series. It turns out the water damage did not extend beyond the matt, and the print was undamaged. He sent it off to an appraisal house in Las Vegas.
According to the appraiser, the insurance value (which I know is different than the sale value) is 10k. I don’t quite know what that means, but there you go. He will send me the details of the appraisal later, and I will post the specifics when he sends them.
From what I understand, this was part of a series called the Ivanhoe Suite. There appear to be numerous runs of this series in the late 1970s, but I haven’t found any that use Roman Numerals.
To answers some of the questions in your previous post. Yes I agree I think it’s a serigraph, here are some macro images I took with my phone. I am sure the exact technique will be in the appraiser’s report.
Here are some close ups. I a not sure if these are registration lines, or just Dali adding layers to his image:
Note any blurring you see at the edges of the images are my cheap clip-on macro lens, not the print.
Full Deckle Vs. No Deckle? Can we call this M.O.D. (Mit Out Deckle? I was a film student). She pics below of the back of the print. Edges look pretty clean. It was unclear to me if that adds or takes from the value.
A few more close ups:
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It would be awesome if those prints were worth $10k each…and that someone would pay that price.
Not being an expert, I’m cautious about what some guy says the “insurance valuation” is. As you said, much different than what someone will pay.
Why not list one on eBay for $10k and see what happens?
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I am sure they will not fetch 10k apiece. But if I had something valued at 10k (or even 2-3k) I would be cautious about listing on Ebay. Ebay doesn’t offer sellers the same protections as buyers, I’m willing to tak the risk for a $200 item but not something worth thousands. I think there are probably better markets to list fine art. I don’t know what they are (this is part of my research), but I am pretty sure they exist.
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I’ve never heard of another online marketplace to sell expensive art in a safer way. Unless you find an auction house with an online component.
We’ve tried selling art at auctions. They want an up front fee just to list in their catalogue. You lose that money if the item doesnt sell. Then they want 19%-28% of the hammer price. Good news is that once the auction is done, the buyer cant return it.
We used to be scared to sell items on eBay that were “expensive”. In the days of selling items for $9.99, we were scared to sell items for $200. Now we realize that $10k isn’t really like big a deal on eBay. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H1.Xgold+coins.TRS0&_nkw=gold+coins&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=16&_odkw=antique+painting&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1
Sounds like you’re on an adventure which is why we love scavenging. We find weird things and then get to learn about them + figure out how to best sell them. I’d love to hear what you figure out. Hope they each sell for $10k!
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Thanks, Jay
You are exactly right – it’s a fun rabbit hole. If this truly is a 10k find (again pretty sure it’s not – especially since print #4 is with someone else), then a payment to an auction house might be the best way to go.
Why buy a Gucci bag direct from a fancy shop in Beverly Hills when you can get a used one for 1/3rd the price on eBay? Because some people like paying more at the fancy store. I want to put these lithographs in front of the fancy people. Do people with enough disposable income to pay 10k for Dali prints shop on eBay? I am sure that the Dealers who sell to the people who pay 10k for Dali prints are on eBay. I don’t want to sell to a high-end trash-elf reseller. I want to sell directly to an art collector.
That’s the fun of all of this; I have minimal capital invested in these prints. I can take my time to figure out the best way to sell them.
I’ll be sure to report my findings back here.
@ MDC Galleries any advice / thoughts on the next steps?
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I think these are signed lithographs rather than serigraphs, just based on how they’re listed by others.
I assume you’ve already gone through and found all this info, including listings and price results, but here are some links:
Set of 4 from the 1977 edition offered for (not yet sold) $5,500
https://www.artbrokerage.com/Salvador-Dali/Ivanhoe-Suite-Set-of-4-32302This site has some info about the different series and how they were numbered:
http://doubletakeart.com/salvador_dali/Ivanhoe_Suite-8420.html#.XvncR2pKhQIThe set of 4, also from the set of 150, sold for $1,500 in 2013
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/18681612_prints-salvador-dali-ivanhoe-suiteMixed set of 3 sold for $1,000
https://www.lofty.com/products/3-after-dali-prints-from-suite-ivanhoe-tarot-1-v11s4Awesome find. Always buy the whole set! 🙂
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Here’s a comment from someone on Youtube on this week’s podcast:
AJ Moose
We had a Salvador Dali print back in 2011. Sold for $10,800 on eBay. It can be done. Mad props to debits and credits for finding several while thrifting. Issue print Date: 1976 Title: American Clock “Timeless Statue” from his “Time Suite” Artist: Salvador Dali 5/11/1904-1/23/1989 Style: Lithograph – Surrealist style featuring his soft watch theme as the face of the Statue of Liberty. The soft watch was a common symbol for Dali, time was relative, not fixed. Notes: 30 EA (artist edition) were printed. Dali has boldly signed the piece in silver point pencil in the lower right hand side of the piece. Size: Art only 20.25″ by 29″, framed size 29.5″ by 39″ Condition: several creases are noted in the heavy stock paper the largest in the bottom left corner at 6″ long. Gold tone frame. -
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So, the sale in the YouTube comment was from the most limited edition/EA of that print. Prints from larger editions of the “Time Suite” go for less.
It appears (after a not at all extensive search) that the pieces Debit and Credits found are from a run of 150. Some from a smaller 100-piece run are offered on 1st Dibs for a few thousand dollars.
I think the lithographs are a great, great find, and I’ve been very wrong before, but I feel like these are worth about $300 to $750 apiece.
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It’s probably worth it to run it by one or more of the named auction houses (Sotheby’s, Christie’s, whatever) to see what they think, just to be safe. I’d hate to be that random person on the internet giving lousy advice and costing someone tens of thousands of dollars. The next steps would depend on what the experts say about the pieces.
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I’m late to the party and have barely posted to the forum. Anyway, I just listened to the podcast episode where this was discussed, so here I am.
I’m no expert and am generally leery of anyone who calls themselves one, like the fella who put an insurance estimate of 10k on the missing print from the suite. Seems nuts to me. There’s enough available auction result data on sites that don’t require paid membership to know that doesn’t seem right. Hausfrau’s numbers seem a lot closer to me.
I wouldn’t be hesitant at all to sell prints that fall in this price range at all on eBay. It isn’t really much as far as art goes. I know of an eBay seller in California who grosses well over a million a year in vintage art sales. I’ve sold several prints for $3k or more. Sure, I get a little nervous everytime, but haven’t had any issues. I just describe well, pack carefully and insure. My hunch is most big time auction houses wouldn’t be too interested in these prints, but you can always try.
And just a note on Dali prints – they’re always a safe bet if one pays what you paid for them. Even if they’re bogus, there’s still some decorative value there. If it’s cheap, just buy it and do some research. I see many pop up in auctions though and I just ignore them. There are so many schemes, scams and frauds in the world of Dali prints that one would have to be aware of all the red flags to make a smart buy.
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