03/29/2019 at 10:47 am #59369
Hello fellow scavengers –
posting an update on the Marsh Painting-
I bought this for 6.48 at a local online auction. Scavengers here helped me find the original brochure for the art show from which it sold in 1948. Thank You!
Christies and Sothebys both had no interest with generic responses of thanks, but no thanks.
Skinner Auctions has responded with a broad estimate of 7-15k. So off its going to Boston for further evaluation and eventual auction (paws crossed) . Professional Shipping with insurance is probably going to run 300.00-
The fees are not bad
30% of the first 1k
20% of 1000 to 9999
and 10% of anything above 10k.
so a 15k hammer would be a 2600 commission.
Not much higher than ebay/paypal 13.5 % and I will gladly pay it to avoid problems with a 5 figure ebay sale; Some things are better left to the experts.
Thanks again for the help, I will let you all know what happens next…
03/29/2019 at 11:12 am #59370
- Location: Washington DC
Awesome! Thanks for the update!0
03/29/2019 at 11:28 am #59371
Retro Treasures WVParticipant
So cool! Did they give you an estimate of when they would be auctioning it?0
03/29/2019 at 11:43 am #59373
- Location: Virginia
nice work! crossing my fingers it’s a high price0
03/29/2019 at 11:48 am #59374
That’s great. I hope you’re work will pay off big.
We have had things in auctions that didnt sell since there’s no guarantee.
What happens if it doesnt sell?
Whats the fee?
Plus I assume you have to pay to have it packed and shipped back?0
03/29/2019 at 2:49 pm #59382
Thanks for all the well wishes ! I don’t really have too many details yet. You all are getting all this in real time, I will definitely let you know when the auction date is established.
Fees are under 100 dollars Jay. There was also mention of a 1 1/2% for insurance. I don’t know the details of what figure that represents yet either.
What if it doesn’t sell? I’m not making a contingency plan for a pass on this lot yet. My gut tells me it’s going to sell.
Once the in person inspection takes place there will be a better sense of value, interest and options to evaluate. Give me a couple weeks for the shipment to arrive (safely), inspection, etc. and I will have some real answers for curious scavenger minds…0
03/29/2019 at 3:24 pm #59384
Cool. I have high hopes it’ll sell for top dollar, but its always good to know what happens if it doesn’t sell.0
03/30/2019 at 11:05 am #59408
- Location: PNW
I sold through Leslie Hindman in Chicago once, and overall it was a very positive experience. I had some sticker shock with the fees (even after they waived some of them), but they were very service-oriented, did an excellent job marketing the item, and it went for 3x its high estimate. Only regret is I couldn’t attend in person to watch the bidding, and I wish I knew who bought it!1+
03/30/2019 at 1:58 pm #59413
- Location: Southern California
Hi Big Sally,
TSF. I got busy and I’m still sitting on my modern painting. I’d really prefer to sell it through a middleman vs. Ebay and I think they have a better audience. But, the two smaller auctioneers I tried weren’t interested except in an appraisal fee.
03/31/2019 at 9:00 am #59432
Christine, have you posted a link to your painting before? I’d love to see it!0
03/31/2019 at 8:59 am #59431
BigSally! I was just wondering about you. This is such exciting news. What a find! Keep us updated!0
04/05/2019 at 2:29 pm #59806
How are you shipping the painting to Skinner? How long did it take for them to get back to you?
I went all in on this Edouard Cortes painting at auction today. So far I have contacted Freeman’s in Philadelphia, but I assume it will take some time before I hear from them.0
04/07/2019 at 1:24 pm #59848
Update on the painting- its on the way to Skinner now and should be in their hands by tuesday.
I had it professionally packed, insured (for 15k) and shipped for just under 3oo UPS. It was explained to me that UPS is much tighter and has better tracking and security for high value items vs. FedEx.
I heard back from Skinner relatively quickly as well. Hoping they will put eyes on the piece this week and give me an updated estimate. when I was transporting it to the shipper I saw a lot of dirt and grime on the surface as well as a few small chips. It will be interesting to see what they say. My mind is replaying all the antique roadshow speeches about restoration and condition…
To be continued.
04/07/2019 at 8:19 pm #59852
I would love to hear more about your find. I assume you’ve done the research, but it looks like Cortes did several renditions of this view, which is of the Boulevard de la Madeline. I don’t know a ton about Cortes, but I do know that he’s a favorite of forgers. My fingers are crossed for you — I love the piece.0
04/08/2019 at 1:01 am #59853
I gather paintings with lots of dirt and grime do much better at auction than the same paintings cleaned up! (Bendor Grosvenor’s “arthistorynews” blog) That’s a really nice painting- the horses drawing the bus are wearing hoods, which seems to me a kind of “actualité” that no forger would think to put in.1+
04/08/2019 at 6:00 pm #59897
I love Bendor Grosvenor!
Do you think those are hoods? I thought the difference in brightness had to do with the horses’ faces being ‘forward’ in the light. Either way, and I don’t say this to mean that I think the painting is a fake, but I don’t think a detail like a hood is too specific or real for a forger to consider. Especially if the forger was educated about the artist and familiar with their body of work — which, in this case, contains several renditions of this view.
Here are just a few (all with the three white horses):
https://rehs.com/cortes_virtex.htm?page=23&key=7 (check out the horse faces on this one)
https://rehs.com/cortes_virtex.htm?page=89&key=7 (again, the faces)
One thing that’s interesting about the original piece posted above is that it’s darker than any of the others I found. Cortes did various renditions of this scene, as I said, at all different times of day — but this one seems to be later in the evening than any of the others. So… is that extra awesome (which I hope), or is it a bad thing (in the sense that forgers often try to figure out what “should” exist and then create it… so, they invent a preparatory sketch or create a painting that has elements of two others and sort of links them.)
Anyway, cast your eyes over this page of hits and you’ll see what I mean. The OP’s painting would fit really nicely in this array, wouldn’t it?!
04/09/2019 at 6:59 am #59923
There is actually a way to check authenticity with a Cortes piece. Since I have some provenance about the piece dating back to the 1970s (before Cortes was readily forged) I believe the work to be real. BUT in order to get the best price in re-sale, I am going to do extensive research. There is also a group in Chicago that primarily authenticates Cortes, so I am considering ponying up the $400 for the authentication.
About the darkness in the painting, it was a gloomy day in PA when I bought the painting and I didn’t take the time to set up my studio lights before I snapped the picture. Here is a slightly better picture…0
04/09/2019 at 7:04 am #59924
Here is a link to an appraisal (and the way to check authenticity) of a Cortes work from Antiques Roadshow.
04/09/2019 at 7:30 pm #59953
AJ, it’s all super-encouraging! I remember that Cortes episode well. My fingers are crossed. If you have Freeman’s take a look at it, do you also feel like you need to get outside authentication?
And I don’t mean at all to cast aspersions on your painting. Art forgery is sort of a “special interest” of mine so I talk about it probably more than is necessary.. 😉
- This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Hausfrau.
04/09/2019 at 11:29 pm #59958
Just a quick Update…The Marsh Painting has arrived at Skinner. No condition report or any other info yet. Standing by to standby. 😉0
04/10/2019 at 5:53 am #59960
Ah, right, I was wrong about the “hoods”. I was thinking, French horses, ooh la la!, only one thing on their mind, have to wear hoods to stop them bolting if they see a filly in the distance 🙂0
04/10/2019 at 8:50 am #59964
Hausfrau – still contemplating about the professional authentication. The problem with auction houses is the fact it takes so long to hear from them, if at all…and the anxious part of me is always thinking “sell, sell sell.” In the meantime, I am going to have my neighbor — who does professional product photography — take some high quality photos of the piece. This may help auction houses looking at it in terms of potential auction price.
BigSally – glad your Marsh piece made it to Skinner (presumably without issue). Being in Central PA, I am considering hand delivering to whatever auction house may take it –DC, NYC, Boston, etc…as the trip would be part of the greater journey. PLUS, I could hit up some potential auctions in those locales.
04/13/2019 at 1:56 pm #60122
04/15/2019 at 9:35 am #60184
Nice Cortes painting. If you’d like to sell it after some more research/authentication, let me know as I may be interested.1+
04/15/2019 at 10:21 am #60192
Yes, looking to sell.0
04/20/2019 at 1:27 pm #60550
Fake Marsh Painting coming back from Skinner Auctions-
LOL yep here is what they said.
“We have inspected the work, and unfortunately it is not a watercolor or tempera. It is a high-quality collotype reproduction. I am terribly sorry. As such it has no real commercial value.”
I had at least 2 mortgage payment dreamt up already from the profits, was sitting on easy street and got backed over by a bus. LOL
Once its back I will be all in at approx. 400.00
I would guess I could sell it on ebay eventually to recoup the cost. Anybody want to estimate a BIN price?
But I do like it and am planning to hang it in our rental. No regrets and I learned a lot. And now I’m going to learn how to clean it?
Thought I’d share this sad story of not finding a treasure in the wild.
04/20/2019 at 11:25 pm #60565
So sorry Sally! I recently had a doozy as well – a very fine painting that I sent to What is my Stuff Worth ($15 evaluation). Nope, it was just an excellent student original copy of a famous artist. Bummer…
I just sold it for $100 on ebay rather quickly, maybe could have gotten more b/c of the excellent work. But, I was happy to be done with it.
Better luck next round!1+
04/21/2019 at 11:35 am #60571
Thanks everyone, I appreciate you…
Christine, maybe reach out to them again- just to confirm their reply didn’t get lost in cyber space. that is what happened to their initial response to me.
Jay I Don’t think it will be more than 50-100 bucks to ship it back without insurance- repacked in its original 10lb package? Tomorrow I’m reaching out to my shipper to see if he can email them a label. I will let you know the path home.
Collotype does sound cool. Do you think someone took a picture of the original to make this? Is that how it works?0
04/21/2019 at 11:35 am #60572
So sorry, Sally. Thank you for taking us along on the ride. All the knowledge you picked up along the way will help you find an even bigger score some day.1+
04/22/2019 at 11:32 pm #60702
Sally, I’m so sorry.
I wonder if at some point the library circulated copies of paintings; one of our local libraries did that into the 1990s. I suppose that makes sense, although it’s not clear why this apparently completely obscure painting by Marsh would have been copied and offered by the library. I’m going to dig around further and see what I can find. I’m so disappointed on your behalf, but as everyone’s said, it’s a good learning experience & you can put your knowledge to use right away.1+
04/23/2019 at 4:01 am #60705
Be careful cleaning if it is a collotype (and there does seem to be instances of Marsh being published in collotype back in the 1940s). Bought one last week (for a quid), an old photo of Cologne. The ink is “rich” but lies on the surface of the paper.1+
04/23/2019 at 11:18 am #60726
“although it’s not clear why this apparently completely obscure painting by Marsh would have been copied and offered by the library.”
“(and there does seem to be instances of Marsh being published in collotype back in the 1940s)”
This is what keeps sticking in my mind. And I know I am a little OCD when I get something stuck in my mind…But where in the hell is the original? In researching the Marsh documents via the Smithsonian online I didn’t find any records of it. I did find other works selling in that period for upwards of 3k so the 750.00 price noted in the brochure may be a clue that it was a collograph all along and mislabeled by the library?
Still waiting to hear back from Skinner on return shipping…0
05/12/2019 at 12:41 pm #61709
The Marsh Collotype is back home safe and sound. 150.00 to get it packed and shipped back. So I am in this project 456.48 total.
I heard back from a researcher with the Smithsonian regarding the Marsh papers and collection there. They have no copy of this image. All the evidence is pointing to this being the original from the brochure, or am I missing something?
The next step is to list it on ebay as is without cleaning it or investing any more money.
Should I watermark the image in some way?0
05/12/2019 at 1:22 pm #61713
–What will you price it at?
–If you sell as original, would you guarantee authenticity?
–If Skinners said it was a print, can you prove its not a print?0
05/13/2019 at 11:15 am #61800
I’m going to price it at 4564.80 OBO as a collotype- and the only image? of this Marsh Work- Marsh did produce prints of his work. The description will lay out the entire history as I know it, and see what happens; and I don’t offer returns.0
05/13/2019 at 1:52 pm #61818
Makes sense. $4k+ would be a huge win.0
05/13/2019 at 5:04 pm #61831
I was about to comment that the author of the catalogue raisonne of Reginald Marsh’s etchings, engravings, and lithographs is still alive — here’s his website: http://normansasowsky.com/ — but then I checked the Smithsonian Marsh archive and realized that the author’s work and notes are contained in it, right? And you’ve been in touch with them. So maybe there’s nothing to be gained by contacting the author.
- This reply was modified 1 month ago by Hausfrau.
05/15/2019 at 4:14 pm #61964
Thanks Hausfrau I sent the author an email and also emailed the whitney museum. I’ll let you know if I hear anything back.0
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