- This topic has 20 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 2 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
I found this box at an estate sale today and it has me stumped. It seems quite old (pre WWII at least) and the marking on it appears to be military. Any help with identifying and valuing it will be greatly appreciated. It measures 18″x15″x10″
This is my first attempt to add pictures to a post, wish me luck.
-
-
-
-
Im not qualified to say what this is.
Good news is that military nerds will definitely correct you once you list it. I’d go with Antique Frog’s guess and put a high price.
-
-
This is a VERY interesting box! So Antique Frog being from across the pond will have a different perspective and he may be right, but if I assume it is of US origin, here’s where I as the military nerd would go with it (thank you, Jay 🙂 ), having had my 2 mugs of espresso today:
The US Army infantry crossed musket insignia was adopted in 1875 (previously it was the kind of French-horn-looking design of the Civil War) but it wasn’t until about 1896 that it was common to include the regiment number above and company number below the crossed rifles on insignia. Although your box’s rifles are not quite the same as the characteristic US musket design, this would have been painted on with a locally-produced stencil so omission of the flintlock and trigger guard on the rifles can be excused. The use of the regiment/company numbering with the insignia declined after WWII, and modern regiments would not have a Company K, as that would be the 11<sup>th</sup> consecutively-lettered company which is too many. They also like to use stencils to number things in the Army, so I’d say this was miscellaneous box number 65 in the supply room, or perhaps corresponding to rifle rack number 65 or tent number 65 (though as you’ll see below, I don’t think there were that many rifles or tents in this unit). I’m not sure what might originally been in the box, since most boxes I’m familiar with containing military supplies would have been wood or metal and are well-stamped or labeled from the factory as to their contents. I’ve seen that characteristic riveted hard board construction in boxes before but can’t really date it, myself.
So I think this was locally-obtained and numbered “Box 65” for some kind of quartermaster supplies in Company K of the 1<sup>st</sup> Infantry Regiment of US forces, after 1896 and before 1949. A quick internet search finds that Company K of the 1<sup>st</sup> Infantry Regiment, California National Guard, was designated as infantry in 1895 enrolling 57 men in San Francisco, mustered into United States Service to deploy to the Philippines in 1898 for the Spanish American War, deactivated and returned to State Service in 1899, then conducted miscellaneous duties in San Francisco such as military funerals and ceremonies, and was reorganized out of existence in 1901. So (if I’m right) this box was labeled and in use only at some point between 1895 to 1901, by a very tiny unit!
I’d bet the California State Military Museum in Sacramento would be interested. Value is anybody’s guess. It being from an era not super-popular with collectors and not being a uniform or firearm-related item (I don’t think) it won’t be broadly sought after, but it is still unusual and interesting and may be a somewhat of a unicorn among unit-marked items.  I’d follow Jay’s advice, using some of these key words, and perhaps some better military nerd than I will tell you exactly what came in that type of box.
-
Hi and thank you for your very detailed response.
I agree with you about the crossed rifles, I too think the lack of detail is just due to poor quality on the stencil work.
Another detail I failed to mention is that there is a very faint stamp inside that appears to show that it was inspected in NY. I will attempt to add the photo of the stamp to this post. This would and provenance to it being a US piece.
Regarding the marking itself, I understand that the rifles indicate Infantry. What do the top and bottom characters indicate? Also, I thought the bottom might be an R rather than a K. So, I went down the rabbit hole of the 65th Infantry Regiment. However, I have little experience in this arena.
I would certainly entertain donating it to the museum, as long as it would be displayed and not stored in a backroom to be forgotten as time went on.
Here’s a picture of the stamp inside:
-
This confirms US military manufacture and use of this box. The “QM D NY” lower line stands for the New York Quartermaster Depot. This box was made specifically for the military, containing military quartermaster supplies for delivery to units across the country. New York did not distribute uniforms or weapons so more likely non-textile camp equipment such as kitchen equipment, though I’m not an expert on what New York distributed. Note the name in the top line of the stamp and the second line, “INSPECTOR”. That’s the name of the actual guy in the depot who inspected this box and stamped it before it left the depot.
-
Regarding the mark, in that era the top character was the Regiment number and the bottom character is the Company letter (Company A, Company B, etc.) or sometimes “S” for Supply Company and a couple other letters used. Here’s an example of the enlisted cap insignia that the stencil maker was copying:
This example is for Company M of the 7 Infantry Regiment. Here’s how it was worn:
I wasn’t suggesting you donate it – museums do buy acquisitions. I’ve sold a couple things to museums over the years.
-
-
If the character above the rifles is a “1”, it’s intended to be 1st Infantry Regiment. Unfortunately for identification purposes there were a handful of other 1st Infantry Regiments at the time such as one in the North Dakota National Guard and a federal one in the US Army that operated in the American West that this could be associated with, besides the California National Guard.
If the character underneath the rifles is an “R”, I’m at a loss because there just wouldn’t be that many companies to get to the letter R and it is not a letter commonly used in that insignia for other purposes that I’m aware of.
I do think the 65 is just a local inventory number.
-
After studying it more closely I agree that it is a K and not R. I will go with your original assessment of Company K of the 1st Infantry Regiment US.
Thanks again for taking the time to help and educate me about this item. I will list it in the next few days at auction with a high starting bid and see what happens.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
I’m going to 2nd Ryanne’s comment. This is super interesting and one of the things that keeps me interested in selling on eBay. Sometimes the research is the best part!
-
-
Hopefully this isn’t too much of a hijack of this thread, but I wanted to share a listing on eBay that demonstrates the power of knowledge and research. I collect historical items that are relevant to my area and this seller occasionally has items of interest to me. This particular item is a several page Civil War letter written to his mother, and in the realm of war letters this is about as good as it gets. The young man writer paints a picture of war that transports you back over 150 years ago and puts you in his place. The seller does an amazing job with his listing and usually gets very good prices for his items. I’m going to bid on it but don’t expect to win. If you’re into this kind of thing I recommend taking a look.
-
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.