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We recently sold some Lego’s to a buyer in Japan. They are claiming the set is incomplete (i.e. “not as described”) and want a full refund including shipping both ways.
Details:
We are long time sellers with 460+ 100% positive rating.
The buyer just joined on 12/14/16 (the day of the purchase) and have never purchased anything on Ebay before.We spent hours checking these sets before sending them out.
They claim they are missing two parts and took pictures of the partially built model with two missing pieces.I looked it up, the two “missing” parts sell on bricklink.com for $.02 and $.05. A grand total of $.07 plus shipping. (No, this is not an admission the parts were missing.)
We offered them $50. They declined and are insisting on 100% plus shipping both ways.
I called Ebay and Ebay essentially said they will be siding with the buyer because per Ebay each transaction it treated as a unique entity. They do not factor in our years of selling/buying on Ebay, our rating, or that the buyer is brand new and could be a scammer.
To say the least this has really damaged my trust in Ebay.
How does one combat a “not a described” customer complaint? It would seem that scammers could have a field day with this.
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How much was the set worth?
As far as I’m aware, all you can do it tell them to send it back for a refund, and hope you’re calling their bluff. The fact that they turned down $50 would lead me to believe they want to keep the set pretty badly.
Worst case, they agree to send it back, and you eat it. Chock it up to cost of doing business.
Best case, they do nothing, you’ve satisfied ebay, and you keep your money.
I’ve had this happen in the past, and had it go both ways.
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The primary set in the listing sells for about $50-$70 on ebay and around $100 on Amazon. There were other partial sets in the lot which boosted the asking price of the listing to $125 pre shipping to Japan.
The problem is really with Ebay’s policy. If you Google “Ebay does not protect Sellers” there’s plenty of seller’s complaining. Lots of horror stories of people getting their merchandise swapped out during the return, or shady buyers removing a key item from a set and then returning it as “incomplete, not as described”.
The only way to stop this sort of thing is for Ebay to make reasonable changes to their policy and weight their judgements by all the facts. Otherwise they’ll keep losing sellers to other platforms where they are protected from predatory buyers.
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I’m sorry that happened to you, WhiteNile. It does suck when you don’t feel supported, but I feel compelled to speak up on behalf of eBay.
I’ve actually had TWO INAD cases closed in my favor within the last week. Neither one was actually INAD, and one was clearly a buyer trying to pull a fast one. I believe eBay reps do the best they can based on the info provided, but outcomes will always vary because the decisions are being made by real, live people. Most retailers take the buyers word for things because it’s just easier that way.
I don’t claim to have the perfect approach to getting these cases closed in my favor, but I’ve found that when I state facts very calmly, professionally and with a clear intent to “work things out fairly” with my buyer – I get great service and help from the rep. Even if I KNOW the buyer is shady, I don’t ever say that to the rep. I simply point to facts that prove it and say, “Can you help me figure out a solution?” YMMV
Hang in there!
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I can understand your initial reaction to what eBay has told you but I will say as long as you do what you are supposed to do eBay will protect you. Please don’t take this post the wrong way, I can understand how you feel when you sell on eBay and feel like they don’t have your back but what if you did mess up and not send all the pieces, or worse they fell out during shipping and it’s not your fault or the buyers and they are just upset cause they really love legos.
Now eBay does make you take returns even if you do not want to because let’s face it if I send you junk and say “to bad no returns” and your stuck with it then you’re never going to buy on eBay again and that’s bad for your business and eBay’s. I have had two cases this last year of what I would call buyer fraud. Once was from eBay and once from Paypal. Both times I did everything I was supposed to do and eBay and Paypal both found in my favor.
Your buyer sounds like a nut or a fraud, I mean I’d take $50 off something if all I had to do was spend 7 cents to buy the parts I need. That being said, they have to return it. You don’t have to give a refund UNTILL they return it. And only if its in the same condition when you get it back.
And yes if you did mess up and missed two pieces and have to eat the shipping then like the other posters said it’s the cost of doing business. But I bet if you just say “Send it back” it will never come back and you won’t have to pay him anything, and if he leaves bad feedback you did not do anything wrong and you can get it taken down by eBay.
Never feel like eBay does not offer seller protection, you have to follow their guidelines to protect yourself. I got a item I shipped a month ago and the buyer gave me the wrong address and then just disappeared after telling me I shipped it to the wrong address like it was my fault cause he did not include his apartment number. Well it finally made its way back to me but I told him he had to pay for the 2nd round of shipping and I need him to update his address in eBay so I’m covered. If he gives me bad feedback for never shipping it again I don’t care cause eBay can see all the messages I sent him asking him to fix it on his end to protect me.
And don’t listen to all that negative stuff you searched for. I bet 90% of the sellers complaining just did not want to put in the effort to follow eBay’s guidelines.
Also the last thing you said about how to combat the “not as described” complaint. Thats easy, you make them do the work. Ryanne and Jay talk about it all the time, people want refunds for BS reasons and expect you to roll over and give them their money. Just put it on them to mail you the item back and suddenly they have to do work to get what they want and eBay makes them do that work. This guy in Japan is going to HAVE to mail you back the item to get a refund and that is a lot of work for no gain as far as someone trying to scam you, he makes no money off doing this so how is it a scam?
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Here’s the update… Ebay is taking the word of the “0” rated buyer over a seller with a 100% positive rating and 463 transactions. It was suggested that Ebay will at least pay for the shipping because we can’t do a label in Japan unfortunately is not true… Ebay is insisting we must provide the shipping label (cost of $65). Regarding it being possible to win a INAD case… maybe if you’re paying for a store… but for the small seller it’s in the 2016 Ebay policies. I’ve spoke to five different agents and they all say the same thing.
I surfed and found a lot of recent sellers complaining that they used to have a fraction of their returns being called INAD. Now they say most of their returns specify INAD because it is a “get out of jail” free card for buyers. I went looking and found websites where “consumer advocates” were advising people to always use INAD when returning an item to Ebay. In short, the word is out, and I think this is something Ebay should address because this is completely unbalanced in favor of the buyer.
So with respect, I still feel the same way. Ebay does not offer any real seller protection given their current policies. I’m not allowed to block sellers with a low rating (say 5 or less) because, once again, Ebay is more interested in promoting new buyers than protecting established sellers.
I did find a website in England where sellers with blatant cases (like mine) were reported to the local paper. In each case after the press called Ebay and asked why they were siding against the seller Ebay reversed their decision. In short, Ebay knows they are screwing over the sellers but they won’t do anything about it unless it is made public.
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WHiteNileVintage,
That sounds really frustrating!! Sorry to hear this is happening to you. Were any of the 5 reps you spoke to in the Appeals Department? The first INAD return I had, didn’t get resolved in my favor, and the whole thing seemed crazy to me since the INAD reason was phrased very strangely. I ended up speaking to two different Appeals Dept reps. The first one was completely unhelpful, and just made me more upset. So I called right back and got another one. The second one was really professional and reasonable. Although he didn’t change the resolution, he did give me a “courtesy refund” for a reason that isn’t relevant here.I wouldn’t give up until you had spoken to at least 2 or 3 Appeals Dept reps. You have to ask the rep that picks up the phone to connect you to the Appeals Dept.
I feel for you. The buyer here seems to be unreasonable (in not accepting the solution of you sending two more pieces), and these types of situations make me extra paranoid about pointing out even the tiniest flaws when I’m listing (which takes a lot of time), but technically if the two pieces are missing, they have a right to the return. (even if it’s buyer’s remorse hiding behind INAD). It’s actually kind of tough call for eBay, IMO. They (and we) cannot afford to lose buyers in this age of Amazon. If this isn’t something that is happening to you all the time, I would just eat the cost and move on (after bugging the hell out of the appeals dept).
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Really, Jay !?!… “Take your toys and go home” is not really a productive comment… that said…
When companies like Amazon/Ebay change their policies it can have a dramatic impact on sellers. Take FBA LTSF as an example. The LTSF was a killer for people who specialize in single long tail items. Lots of Amazon sellers (especially media sellers) left Amazon (or at least FBA) simply because of that single policy change.
So has something changed at Ebay since I was last involved with Ebay a few years ago. Yes. Ebay has clearly changed their INAD policy. This is having an impact. Check out the Consumer Affairs website, over 2700 complaints against Ebay, Ebay is rated a lowly 1 out of 5 stars, and many/most of the recent cases are the exact issue I’m reporting. In short, the complaints are pouring in from Ebay sellers. Also on the Ebay website there are numerous threads with plenty of Ebay sellers all complaining about this same issue. So this isn’t just me complaining, this is thousands of sellers who are tired of being taken advantage of by predatory buyers and ebay policies that make sellers 100% responsible for the cost of the buyer’s mistake/crime.
Need more proof, multiple federal judges have now sided with sellers against Ebay and are allowing class action lawsuits to proceed. In short, even though Ebay policy prevents sellers from joining a class action lawsuit, the judges in multiple cases have found enough evidence to set aside Ebay’s Seller Agreement and proceed with the cases. Don’t believe me, google it for yourself. Ebay really needs to wake up. Why do they think OfferUp, Letgo, Bonanza, Swap, etc. are all springing up at the same time? Why have some categories seen their listings per week decline by as much as 50%? Clearly some buyers are “picking up their toys and going home.”
So what can be done to protect yourself? Unfortunately not much. My comments/learnings from this would be if a “0” rated buyer suddenly joins Ebay just to buy one of your more expensive items (especially something easily translatable into cash) I would consider cancelling the order.
P.S. Last, snarkiness aside (or perhaps sometimes because of it) my wife and I love your podcast.
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I joke with you about quitting your store. Please don’t. But in reality, this seems to be a real decision by a certain kind of seller that just can’t get over grumpy buyers. They cut off their nose to spite their face. The official eBay forums are full of these crazed sellers who, instead of just eating the return and listing new items, spend countless hours needing to convince everyone how bad eBay is.
I’m sorry you’re having issues with this one buyer. I’m sorry that eBay isn’t taking your side. But it happens. Like Sonia says, you can keep trying to find a good CS rep who will take your side. One bad sale won’t kill you.
No one is unsympathetic to your plight. In our eight year experience selling full-time on eBay, we do not have the feeling that “eBay does not protect sellers”. Most times cases go our way. Every so often eBay goes against us. We simply choose to eat the loss as quickly as possible and not let it infect our brain with anger and resentment.
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What an interesting post this is.
Regardless of how this started it has turned into an endless rant by the author.
I’m not hear to defend Ebay or tell you that your are wrong. I just have to wonder why you are going on and on about it. Life is way too short to be so unhappy about this type of situation.
In the end. No one is forcing any of us to sell on Ebay. It is a choice.
If you choose to surf the net and find people unhappy with Ebay, the government, the Post Office or a particular religion that is also a choice.
Where do you want to focus your energy WhiteNileVintage?
I think it’s time to “pull off the bandaid” and move on.
I know it’s not fun, but neither are paying taxes walking the dog at midnight or surprise visits from the in laws. We all survive those and you’ll probably survive this.
I truly wish you the best and will admit you’re probably getting screwed on this deal.
Good Luck
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It’s a problem with any business. At some point, a customer or business partner is going to screw you over. It happens in every industry. I’ve experienced it in every job I’ve had, from fast-food to the military, and it’s impossible to bullet-proof yourself from it. All you can do is try to reduce your risk, and not make yourself crazy fretting over it.
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Fair enough…’tearing the bandaid off’. Did I survive… still typing … conclusion ‘Yes’.
Why did this one bother me so much… fear. My wife and I spent a tremendous amount of time and money on Amazon over the last two years, reinventing our business plan as Amazon continually shifted. Finally along came the LTSF and no single item storage exemption and our Amazon FBA plan got trashed.
Next step… Plan G (Plans A-F were used on Amazon)… try selling on Ebay only to have the above issue happen within our first two dozen sales.
Next next step… research is this just a one off case … hmmm 2700+ official consumer complaints and multiple Federal judges siding against Ebay … nope, not just me. Ebay has a real problem. Is Ebay’s problem a game ender for our business plan… no.
Result… Plan H… continue selling on Ebay but do not sell higher ticket items to new buyers or those with a 0 rating even if it means my account gets dingged for occasionally cancelling a sale.
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Yep, eBay is just a bog corporation. Its the six most popular website site in the US. I;m surprised they only have 2700 complaints.
It’s good you have different strategies and that you try doing experiments. Maybe try selling on Craigslist or Facebook directly to customers you meet in person. Whatever makes you feel the most comfortable.
Hope your future sales go better.
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Honestly, once you do the math the LTSF exemption thing is not a deal killer. So you may not be able to list an unknown book for $1000k and just let it sit in a warehouse for years. Times that by millions and millions – that’s the hole amazon dug for themselves. I’m surprised they took this long.
I cut my prices on the books I was going to trash anyway, and in the last 2 weeks I’ve made enough to cover my LTSF’s. I’ll keep any book I feel I can make a minimum of $20 on within the next year. You can adapt to this.
As for the INAD issue, I agree you are likely getting scammed for buyer’s remorse. Any reasonable buyer would accept you sending them the replacement parts. It goes both ways though. If even one single piece is missing when they return it, file a claim against the buyer.
In the end you just take stock of your loss, and realize it is a drop in the bucket. I lost $100 on an INAD for a GSP order to Canada on an item I paid $50 for. I let it go. I got scammed on amazon on a NIB puzzle – the buyer did the puzzle over a few weeks and then returned it stating it “didn’t meet their expectations”. I let it go immediately. Keep moving forward.Above all, don’t seek out others who are frustrated like you are. That just compounds the problem and leads you to dwell on negativity for longer than you need to.
Keep on listing and this will just be a blip on the past radar very soon!
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Boy did this thread go in a hundred directions.
A couple of random thoughts that are worth what you pay for them:
1) It’s a choice. We get screwed on any platform as a seller, but it’s minimal and the cost of doing business. As Jay pointed out, we have a choice, not just on eBay, but everything in life. If it doesn’t work for you, move on. Raging against the machine can be therapeutic for the person on the soapbox, but it doesn’t typically do much for the audience.
2) It is not personal. Emotion has to be removed from our business model. As you did, my initial reaction to certain things that happen is one born out of fear. I quit a very lucractive career to sell full time. In my mind, every return, every neutral feedback, or every time I feel like a platform is screwing me I get my back up because in my mind it is threatening my income and whether I made the right decision. I have learned to tell myself that it is simply business, not catastrophic, and move on. When Jay and Ryanne talk about just issuing a refund if it isn’t worth fighting about is spot on because of the peace of mind it brings. We’ve adopted this and it is amazing how quickly I forget about the small mole hills I could have built a mountain out of.
3) Change is going to happen. The question is are you ready to adapt and move on? Life whitenile and retro I also sell FBA and we are pretty heavy into it. When the fee structures came in I started changing inventory and the model for Amazon. I don’t like the changes but I have adapted to them and moved on. To remove the fear from change, my next point is what I see as the key to success for online sellers.
4) Diversify. Shan and I often talk about how we do not believe we will be selling in the same forms we are now in ten years. There will be an evolution as platforms change. We are currently on three platforms and also use every extra penny to buy rental properties and now have two. I do believe Amazon will ultimately squeeze most third party sellers out. But it’s just my opinion and I am going to ride that wave until I simply don’t make my margins. In the meantime we are building our eBay pipeline to be as big as possible to compensate for Amazon. We are trying to expand our presence on etsy. We are looking at rental properties in other states.
5) By selling online, I think most of us are simply trying to give ourselves the gift of owning our own time day in and day out. Do we want to spend our hard earned time raging against the machine or doing something we love? Going back to 1), I try to remember that’s what it is all about. A choice. I choose to enjoy my time as much as possible because eBay currently gives me the ability to choose.
whiskey, of the long winded whiskeys
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This doesn’t help you, but in any case when the buyer isn’t happy I offer to refund the money and pay for shipping. Can’t risk a negative feedback. How much is a neg worth to you? Oh and I also do this even when I know they are wrong. You don’t have the upper hand unless they start using foul language at you. Cost of doing business. Doesn’t happen frequently.
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Hi Fred, thanks for your comments. My wife and I are currently very small Ebay sellers and I’m putting this “experience” in the rear view mirror. I generally take the approach you describe (i.e. refund immediately and pay the shipping). That seems to work pretty well. Our combined sales on Amazon/Ebay are about 2500 units and we have (or had until this ‘person’ dings us) a 100% rating on both platforms.
This one sucked because we are just getting our toes back in the Ebay waters (less than 100 listings, originally joined in 1998) and this scam cost us $208 (yes Ebay did force us to pay the shipping to Japan) so it wiped out almost 50% of our Ebay sales for the month.
Last, I stand by all my findings in my above posts regarding Ebay’s relationship with the selling community. Perhaps a good thrashing in Federal court will make Ebay become more seller friendly. Time will tell.
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WhiteNileVintage,
This blog post from ebay’s Business blog is short on details, which I’m sure will come at a later date, but here’s a link and a short quote that suggests ebay DOES understand that fraudulent returns are a pain point for sellers:
http://community.ebay.com/t5/eBay-for-Business/Our-2017-Game-Plan-for-Seller-Success/ba-p/26582650
. We also intend to start taking a stronger stance on the kinds of experiences that keep buyers from coming back—as well as protect you, our sellers, from buyers who take unfair advantage of returns.
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