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Recently a buyer requested a return on a $150 jukebox speaker claiming it was not as described. He was correct because I missed some interior damage, so I accepted the return. He did not pack it properly for the return trip and it arrived destroyed. I escalated the case with eBay stating that the item was damaged by the buyer due to improper shipment. Ebay decided the case against me, stating the below. Do I have any recourse or am I forced to take the $150 loss plus the $60 in initial and return shipping?
Thank you for contacting eBay about the case that was filed for the NICE 1950’s SEEBURG JUKEBOX TEARDROP SPEAKER (253663586168) that was returned by buyer “billvintagebee”. I understand from your email that the item was not packed properly for the return trip as it arrives with significant damage on the top that is beyond repair. Let me assist you with your concern today.
We take potential fraud seriously. What you are claiming would be considered fraud. However, as we don’t handle items directly, we’re unable to make that determination.
In these situations, our decision will be that the seller accepts the return, issues the refund, and pursues the issue outside of eBay if they wish. You can ask your buyer if the item was insured and try to file a claim with the carrier used in shipping the item back. You can use eBay messages in communicating with your buyer.
On the other hand, if you feel that your buyer is taking advantage of the returns policy, you can report them anonymously to us. Our specialists will review the buyer’s account for any history or pattern of buyer abuse. We can’t disclose any actions taken on another member’s account but I assure you that we will investigate and respond appropriately.
This might not be the decision that you are expecting but I trust that I’ve explained things clearly. Thanks for choosing eBay and have a great day.
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Have you talked to the buyer directly and explained what happened? If they shipped USPS priority mail, it will come with at least some insurance. Or maybe the buyer will admit to his carelessness in packing the item and maybe you can come to some kind of agreement on compensation for the damage.
Unless you wanted to take the buyer to small claims court, I don’t think you have any other recourse, unfortunately.
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Agree with Zach. Your first hope is to appeal to the buyer and hope they’re honest. They can claim insurance from USPS.
But this is a good example with delicate items. We rarely ask buyers to return delicate items because they usually cant pack properly.
–Could you have offered a partial refund?
–If not, was the speaker still even usable with the damage?-
Right there with Jay. It is very difficult for a buyer to duplicate our “custom cocoon packing process”. They are hap-hazard and will mostly lead to damage on the return. On delicate items or those with heavy shipping costs, especially since these days most sellers have to cover the round trip shipping costs, it is best to try to work it out with the buyer. By them keeping it, it atleast saves the return shipping cost from coming out of your pocket.
Also as Jay is indicating, when an item is insured, it is insured by the shipping party. So the buyer is the one covered by the return shipping not you. So by having a buyer return the item they are the ones who will have to make the claim. And doing this will require them to have to ask you for photos to send to them, they will have to go through the USPS perocess, fill out the forms and attach the photos. The chances of them taking the time to do all of this is gets pretty slim. So this supports what Jay is saying. Work something out with the buyer. Try the partial refund approach.
BUT if your buyer notifies you that something “arrived” damage, they are fishing, then tell them to send you several photos of the damage and you make the claim and you are good to go and you file with USPS and it is only a little work on your part to get what adds to, still a complete sale.
BUT… when you request for the buyer to send to you, this process gets reversed and is usually not worth the efforts or taking a chance. In this case even if you offer a refund in a large amount that only leaves you your original buying cost in your pocket, so be it. Just a cost of doing business and at least you keep enough to cover the original cost. Worst case scenario, you refund the whole thing, sales price plus original shipping. For the few times this happens in your business life spam, again it is just a cost of doing business.
Right now, all you can do is the complete refund, and as Jay says, see if it is still sellable at a reduced cost or do as Steven S. does and maybe part it out. At least these two suggestions may help recoupe some of the total refund cost you had to do.
Running your store as a business, then national standardized percentages, as has been stated here on SL previously, is approx. 1-1/2% to 2% for “shrinkage” which is breakage, loss, scams, etc., etc. In Jay and Ryanne’s case based on $1,000 per week or $52k per year, then $1.040 per year in these “shrinkage” cases is perfectly normal and a part of doing business. Of course you try to minimize those by using the partial refunds, insurance claims from your end, and then just keep listing and going forward.
It is luck some times and you ahve to just take it in stride. You didn’t win the Lotto either, so don’t lose any sleep over it, even though $150+$60=$210 does hurt in the short term
Take care and have a good weekend.. Go find that $1,000 treasure
mike at MDC Galleries and Fine Art in Atlanta
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An additional tack to reaching out to the Buyer would be to reply to the frustrating eBay cut & pasted form response, and in brief terms point out that you’re NOT at all indicating “fraud” but rather carelessness (even unintentionally) in the return shipping, leading to damage of an item that is no longer sellable. Let them know that you’re reaching out to the Buyer (or that you already have, depending on where you are in the process), but are aiming for best practices in a complicated situation, and require their help. You never know.
I had a form response from eBay regarding a return in recent months that led me to spell out in a timeline of bullet points what had actually occurred, attach messages, and point out how dissatisfying and incorrect their form response was. Without even asking for the situation to be reviewed by someone higher up, I got a better response from a different rep, and the situation was finally handled as best eBay could do (so, +/-).
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SilverFox not disagreeing at all but it comes down to the bottom line of who is going to pay. There is only 4 people involved, the buyer, the seller, the shipper [USPS], the e-commerce software platform provider [Ebay].
So regardless of how the response is worded, generic bolier plate or hand written greeting card, the bottom line is that the seller is trying to get someone to pay for this so she doesn’t have to eat all that cost.
The buyer has already sent the item back and is out of the picture. Ebay is basically saying you used our software platform to sell your item, we are done, don’t care who or why it “broke” or “was damaged”, that is what insurance is for. So in our opinion, the last resort is to appeal to the the Shipper. Possibly call your local PostMaster and state the situation, but bet you dollars to doughnuts, they will not want to be responsible for a shipping point not packaging an item correctly.
All of the shippers have lots of regulations {SOP’s] about how to properly package an item for transit and will fall back on those when they wish to get out from under paying for something. Many videos about how a package needs to be packed and what tests it must withstand to be safely shipped.
So, that leaves the seller with the burden of proof and she can’t because she did not pack or ship it. Again, just an opinion here, but I would still go with what Jay outlined, show me some pictures of the damaged areas I missed or didn’t describe, and if I see it is true, just pony up and try to negotiate as little of a refund as possible. But even that can’t happen now because the return was accepted and the item was returned and it has been received. Ebay has no way of knowing that the item the seller would show them in photos is even the real one that was shipped. Ebay, is saying, color us out of here, we be gone. So long, farewell, good luck.
There still is the issue possibly coming up for an INAD case which, the seller has already admitted to missing stating and showing the damged area and if a negative is gotten may have to stand.
Again just expressing an opinion, but think it really a matter of “who is the final person in the food chain that will agree to pay for this”. And I think it will be the seller, unless they can convince the buyer to accept the responsibility of poor packing and to to file a claim for the seller and then split the cost with you.
For us all of that would just not be worth our time. If all of this took 3 or 4 hours we could list many new items and already be presenting to the buying public hundreds of dollars worth of possible new sales.
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I had a similar thing happen to me in the past, no where near the amount of money you are talking about, but this is how I handled it. Buyer bought a new pair of boots from me for $40.00. She got them and wanted to return them for fit. She did return them but provided no internal protection whatsoever and just threw them in the box. The “new” boots were now covered with digs and scratches, looked pretty sad, and could no longer be considered a “new” item. I did refund her in full and ending up donating the boots to my local thrift store. I took several pictures of the damage and filed a USPS claim in reverse order…the buyer was the sender, I was the recipient. I provided proof of value, I provided documentation of damage. I requested the claim be paid to me, the recipient. No questions asked whatsoever, USPS paid in full in about one weeks time (because priority mail is insured). I avoided going back and forth with the buyer, I satisfied eBay because I refunded the buyer, I was made whole and hopefully someone found a pair of boots that looked pretty bad but would serve them well for work or whatever for a few years.
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I called and fought this through with a few reps but was not able to get anywhere. I did get them to cover the $30 cost for return shipping. The item has a residual value of around $50 and I think it was insured by USPS for $50, so I should be able to mitigate my losses to a degree.
I really wish I knew about this risk ahead of time. I went for years thinking seller protection would cover me in cases like this.
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