Scavenger Life Episode 336: What Would You Do?

[Ryanne]

 We bump up against the age old questions about auction vs buy now, cancel and sell again for 20x the price, what would you do in this situation? Als
[See the full post at: Scavenger Life Episode 336: What Would You Do?]

[Mark S]

11/19/17 – 11/25/17

Items In Store: 2,044
Items Sold: 19
Cost of Items Sold: $60 (around)

Total Sales: $666 (Let’s hope that is not a bad sign)

HIghest Price Sold: $85 (Antique Ox Yoke Primitive Farm Hanging Light Man Cave Rustic Cabin)

This isn’t the most expensive item I’ve ever sold, but I think it is one of the most unique.
I just had to have this when I saw it.

Here it is: https://www.ebay.com/itm/332453762433

Average Price Sold: 35.05
Returns: 1
Money Spent on New Inventory This Week: $ 29
Number of Items listed this week: 26

Decent week. Unusually quiet last Sunday and Monday, but the sales increased Wed. and beyond. Did a little retial Arbitrage on Friday, so we will see how that works out.

Quick question: i sold a bowling ball on Truegether. I want to ship it Fedex but Paypal doesnt have that option. Is there a place on Truegether to do that or do i just need to send it totally separate using Fedex Home?

Mark

[Jay]

I’m not sure of the options on Trugether. But if fedEx is cheaper, might as well just ship that way on its own. How much did the bowling ball sell for?

[The Speckled Goat]

This reply is for Mark who wants to ship an item via FedEx but Paypal doesn’t offer that as an option.
Somebody on this forum (sorry, don’t remember your user ID or name) suggested a hack which worked beautifully for me and it goes like this: Choose an old (beyond your return window) sale on eBay, then go in and print a second label, editing the “ship to” address. It will show up as another tracking under the original sale but who cares. Then you can upload the FedEx Smart Post tracking # to Truegether (although I don’t use Truegether so I really have no idea on how that works).

I had a very heavy personal item I needed to ship to the manufacturer for repair. It was going to cost $45 via USPS. It was $11 via FedEx Smart Post. It was in no way related to an eBay sale, but I just piggy backed onto a previous sale to get the ability to use Smart Post. Now it shows two tracking/deliveries, which I suppose could be problematic somehow if there’s an issue with the sale. But so far no issues (2 months later), and it’s seems to be just buried in the sales records at this point. I will update if this comes back to bite me in the a$$.
Caren
eBay store: TheSpeckledGoatLLC

[T-Satt]

By doing that, does the buyer of the original item get a second shipping notice from eBay?

[Linda Shields]

Goat, I used to do that to buy reduced cost shipping labels for anything at all. But now it will cause you to show up as late shipping on the previously delivered item that you previously shipped, giving you a defect for each day. And if you use a recently shipped item you won’t have any proof that that item ever arrived. I hope that made some kind of sense.

[Mark S]

The bowling bowl sold for $29.69. Sending it USPS is $60, which is more than the customer paid in total.

[T-Satt]

No, you can’t use FedEx via PayPal.

But, you can try going to a FedEx office, shipping the item, then adding the tracking number into PayPal.

[T-Satt]

Week of 11/19-11/25
Total Items in Store: 1,696
Number of Items Listed: 44
Number of Items Sold: 64 (Includes 2 Etsy)
Weekly STR: 16%
Total Product Sales: $6,726
Cost of Items Sold: $328
Gross Profit for Week: $5,946
Highest Item Sold: $5,000 – 275+ Piece Department 56 Dicken’s Village
Competition: Highest Priced Sale: Veronica wins the week and Veronica leads for the year 27-19.

No, that total sales number is not a mistake.

However, that includes a $5,000 sale of a 275+ piece Dicken’s Village collection we sold on consignment for a person in our area. Now to hope that it all goes through. They are paying for this on a monthly plan with the original seller, and we are just in the middle making sure it all goes smooth. We are due a 15% commission on the sale once it is complete in April, so let’s hope it goes through.

The listing numbers are down with the holidays and taking some time off to spend it with my family. Was a bit of a rough week on a lot of fronts, so we could use some prayers for some smoother water…

Working on my contract job for the next two weeks, but I’m committing to still getting listings up each day early. So list from 5-9, work the contract job from 10-6. Trying to keep both gigs going right now.

[Jay]

–Was the $5000 purchase was through your eBay store?
–If so, what format was the sale and what how the payment work? Assume its not your Paypal.
–How long is the monthly payment plan between buyer and the owner?
–Will you just keep an unpaid item until it gets paid?

[T-Satt]

Yes, the purchase was through our eBay store. This was on a buy it now, and the buyer messaged their offer and terms until it was in agreement with the original seller. They accepted the offer of $5,000, payable in monthly installments starting on December 5. I am having the buyer and original seller get in contact with each other to handle the payment and pickup (I have stated to the original seller that I believe he should ask for money orders from Western Union, and that he should take them directly to Western Union to cash them to ensure their is no fraud).

Yes, I will just keep this as an unpaid item until paid. If they get late on the first installment and don’t follow up, I will open an Unpaid Item case to get the fees returned.

[T-Satt]

On a related note, when you guys have done a sale that will be local pickup, do you always get paid outside of PayPal? If the buyer has a third party freight company (like UShip), can they pay via PayPal, but you can protect against a PayPal case buy using a UShip Tracking number that proves pickup and delivery? I have wondered if those third part freight companies provide you with tracking, and would that satisfy PayPal if a buyer opens a case of not delivered.

[Jay]

We do everything through Paypal. I think it does come down to trust because if a buyer wanted to scam us, they could in this situation. I’m not sure how Payapl would respond to tracking from a Ushipper. Other sellers have said that the buyer should sign an invoice, or even take their photo picking up the item. This seems more a powerful tool to disincentivize a scam since the buyer think they’re on record. I dont know how Paypal would affirm as proof that the photo was the buyer.

When we sell big items that need shipping outside normal channels, we have a good conversation with the buyer. We talk about what’s expected and what’s going to happen. We listen to their understanding of the situation. If we felt weird about any of it, we’d cancel since we don’t have 100% security on those transactions. but so far, every single large transaction has worked out great. I believe that people are generally nice.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Jay.

[T-Satt]

I agree with the last statement…but I also follow the “Trust…but verify” philosophy.

We have had people try to process claims via PayPal in the past, and we were covered since we had tracking. I’m of the belief that you don’t go through PayPal unless there is tracking. In my research via Dr. G, I hear a lot of issues via going through PayPal without tracking. Many have said that photos with IDs and the like would lessen the chances of a scammer, but has not worked when they filed the claim anyway (PayPal only accepts third party tracking).

So you have cancelled the sale and refunded the money before? Have you had any issues with eBay when you have done that?

[Jay]

So if you wouldnt use Paypal, what would you use? Sellers think if they accept cash then this solves the issue, but a scammer could still claim on eBay they didnt get the item.

We’ve never had to cancel a sale like this. Every single buyer has been cool and fun to work with. We’ve sold large items to buyers who pick up themselves, shippers sent to us from the buyer, and through shippers we’ve hired.

I think some folks are getting confused about cancelling a sale on eBay.
eBay allows sellers to cancel sales even after they’ve paid:
https://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/cancel-transaction-process.html

When you need to cancel a transaction, it’s a good practice to first let the buyer know you’re canceling it and why.

You can cancel a transaction:
–Up to 30 days after the sale
–Even if your buyer has already paid for the item

You won’t be able to cancel a transaction if:
–The buyer has already opened an Item not received request.
–You’ve already opened an Unpaid item case.

We let the buyer know you canceled the transaction. If the buyer already paid for the item via PayPal, the refund is automatically sent during the cancellation process. If they paid with a method other than PayPal, you have 10 days to refund them.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Jay.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Jay.

[T-Satt]

If we don’t use PayPal, we use cash. A scammer couldn’t come back against us via PayPal, since they didn’t pay that way. And the worst they could do on eBay is open a case, but not sure how eBay would handle it. eBay would have no record of the payment (since they didn’t go through PayPal) nor any record of the delivery. At least in this case, we are protected monetarily.

I was asking on the eBay cancellation as I know your seller account is dinged if you cancel an order due to a mistake by the seller (out of inventory, broken, etc.) As long as you don’t have many of them, it shouldn’t be an issue, but I know that even at our level, if we get more than one of these types of cancellations, we are close to losing TRS level.

[Jay]

This is kind of arguing “how many angels can dance on the head of a needle”, but you did ask!

So lets say I’m a scammer. I buy an item from you local pickup. I pay in cash. Then I go home and tell eBay that I never received the item and I ask for a refund. Does eBay say no? Curious what the buyer protection would be.

Is accepting cash the only assurance you need?

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

If you take cash, can’t you also claim you never got paid!

mc

[T-Satt]

Yep. No buyer protection unless they use PayPal…

Buyer protection

Under the eBay Money Back Guarantee, you’re protected for the full value of most orders, including shipping, when you pay with PayPal.

Other accepted payments

For items in certain categories (such as Motors or Real Estate) or those picked up in person, sellers can also offer to accept payment on pickup, COD (Cash on Delivery), bank-to-bank transfers, checks, money orders, or other payment services. With these methods though, you aren’t covered by the eBay Money Back Guarantee.

[T-Satt]

They could ask eBay, but since the sale on eBay would not show that the buyer paid (no PayPal), how could they give a refund?

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

I second this process. I have had 2 cases whereby we could not find an item over the past several years. We contacted the buyer. Told them the full story, apologized. Told them we were going to do a full 100% refund and offered a 30% discount on any other item in our store if they so wanted.

The first was fine and the second was OK, but a week later did do a neutral on us. I posted here on SL about our first neutral since 2002 and Jay told us to not worry about it and keep going. One neutral in 15 years was a great achievement.

Mike at MDC Galleries in Atlanta

[T-Satt]

We did the same in the 2 cases where we had a double sale (when we first went to Bonanza, sales took place on Bonanza, didn’t come off of eBay, and then later sold on eBay).

The buyers were OK and we didn’t even get a negative feedback, but the cancelled sale hit our seller account, to the point where one more mistake would have lost our TRS status. That was my main concern, especially since on my side, I can’t afford any negatives that would push me down in search.

[Jay]

Top Rated Seller status is nice and we always try to attain it, but it’s absolutely not a necessity. Especially now that they only give 10% off final value fees.

I follow several sellers who are not TRS because they dont ship quickly, but do really well because they sell great stuff.

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

We just had that big wide format Epson printer picked up on Friday. It was a local pick-up Sale for $880. The buyer asked if we would ship to him in Cal. We said we do not ship large frieght but he was perfectly welcome to arrange his own shipping and we gave him the several links that Jay & Ryanne use.

We stipulated he had to pay for the item first within 48 hours or we wouldn’t hold the item. That we required full contact information to the shipper once he had arranged everything and that we would contact the shipper and that the shipper would be required to sign a pick-up invoice and furnish a valid drivers license of which we would write it down along with the expiration date. He agreed and paid the next day and about a week later sent us the shippers contact info. That was around Nov. 1st. Then a week later he informed us of the Ushipper contractor that won the bid.

We contacted the shipper and also informed him of the signing and license number requirement. He was cool with it.

It took about 2 more weeks and it was picked up Friday. I had the shipper-driver sign the invoice along with a hand written inventory of all the cable, connectors and do dads that went with the printer. I took the drivers wallet and wrote the drivers license number down and the expiration date.

After the driver left, I scanned the document and sent it to the buyer and told him everything was fine and it was on it’s way. So guess it is about 2/3 rds the way there. We will see if it arrives in a timely manner and if everything was OK.

It was loaded into the cab section of the pick-up truck and wrapped with a furniture blanket.

So far so good with our second local pick-up. Both handled this way.

mike at MDC Galleries in Atlanta

[T-Satt]

Thanks Mike. He paid via PayPal on this?

I’m just thinking about this for our Dicken’s Village sale. I may or may not have to get in the middle, especially if the buyer wants to pay via PayPal on this each month. Then I have to worry about them opening a case with PayPal. Again, I assume all buyers are good…but I CYA as well for those that may not be good.

At $5,000, I don’t want to be on the hook with PayPal if something goes screwy…

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

I hear you. And I think I have heard – read that if something goes screwy that PayPal has been known to freeze your whole account until the matter is resolved. But no personal experience with that.

mc at MDCG

[T-Satt]

Yep. We were frozen once for a week, when they decided that they needed to verify our account. All funds on hold, couldn’t even ship out items, couldn’t receive payment, couldn’t list. It was a nightmare.

I had to open a personal PayPal account, invoice buyers through the personal account, then shipped from there. And still had to wait 21 days to get paid.

Not a fun time…

[Jay]

That big sale sounds too complicated for me. I know it’s the real owner who accepted the payment plan, but I would never do something like that on eBay. It’s pay up front or go home.

If the buyer and seller are in the same town, why ever do it on eBay in the first place?

[T-Satt]

They aren’t in the same town. Seller in Colorado, buyer in Texas…

Yeah, it is a fun one…

Great learning opportunity! That is why I’m asking on the outside freight options. Mostly I’m concerned that if something goes fishy, the original seller (and us) are not caught up monetarily. The rest is logistics…

[Steven S]

Isn’t a local pick up sale whether or not it involves any shipping still just a local pick up transaction and not subject to eBay or Paypal protections against item not received?
I sold some huge speakers on eBay, local pick up, and at the buyers request brought them to a FedEx pack and ship, he paid them for the service. The speakers were damaged and although I did the legwork for a refund for him (no easy trick with FedEx) he was unable to open a case on eBay as it was not a shipped item as far as eBay was concerned.

[Linda Shields]

T-Satt i hope things are going better for you all. Holidays can be difficult. I was selling gangbusters over the Thanksgiving weekend until my son aurprised us with the delightful news that he was bringing two of my granddaughters from Hong Kong for a 2 week visit. Suddenly ebay has been dropped while I entertain two teen girls—what a happy time for me!i will buckle down again after they leave. Family comes first. I do admire you for your stamina to get up early and list before putting in a full day at work. Good for you!!!

[T-Satt]

Thanks Linda. Yes, going better, slow but sure.

I like the new process of listing first thing in the day. Even getting 10 done in 2-3 hours is a huge boost for my productivity, in all parts of my schedule.

[Sharyn]

Week of Nov 19-25
* Total Items in Store: 1193
* Items Sold: 18
* Cost of Items Sold: $30.19 + $9 Commission
* Total Sales: $568.91
* Highest Price Sold: $200 Mink coat
* Average Price Sold: $31.61
* Returns: 0
* Money Spent on New Inventory This Week: $32.77
* Number of items listed this week: 35

As I mentioned under the “slowest week ever” topic, my week has been pretty normal with 18 sales. I had 6 sales on Thanksgiving Day, but then Black Friday & the weekend were quiet. I did sell a few higher priced items that made my total sales a bit higher than normal.

I was thinking about how to deal with returns. I understand that you guys can just accept a return, and then choose not to refund the full amount because you are in the beta program. For those of us that are not and the buyer is asking you to pay for return shipping, I think that perhaps accepting a return right away may not be the right decision. If it is a light weight item, especially first class, or if a mistake was made in the description, then I think yes, just accept it. But, if return shipping will cost a higher amount, perhaps the seller should contact the buyer first and plead your case as to why a “not as described” is not appropriate. The seller can also contact ebay if the buyer doesn’t respond in a day or two. But, the seller should accept the return no matter what before the buyer has the right to escalate. Is that four days? Then, the seller could call in ebay after the item is returned and plead your case.

A few sellers have recently commented on the forum where they either offered a partial refund and waited too long to respond or have accepted a INAD return and had to pay for shipping after receiving the item back. I think that a seller should document their objections to paying shipping before accepting the return.

Just my 2 cents.

[Brian Treasures from Grandmas]

Week November 19-25, 2017

Total Items in Store: 898
Items Sold: 27 (1 Amazon)
Cost of Items Sold: $167 (16.9% of sales)
Total Sales: $984.82
Highest Price Sold: $200 (1962 Barbie with Tweed Suit)
Average Price Sold: $36.47
Returns: 1
Money Spent on New Inventory This Week: $30
Number of items listed this week: 4
Promoted listings test: 16 sales, $745.86 (75.7% of total sales), $37.80 fees (5.1% of sales)

Another good week, definitely above average for me. I do love this time of year as the non-registered buyers start coming through more often, they rarely try to haggle on price and just Buy It Now. As I’ve noted over the past few weeks the percentages of sales that are coming through Promoted Listings is incredibly high now. My hypothesis is that the surge of shoppers that aren’t familiar with eBay may be navigating/clicking on the promoted links, while seasoned eBayers are looking for the best price/nearest location of items.

Not too much listing/sourcing activity this week during the holiday. My wife & I hosted my parents, her parents, and her sister. It was a nice Thanksgiving and then on Friday we took my parents to the World Trade Center grounds – the new park and pools first and then up to the top of One World Trade – as they hadn’t been since it was still a pile of rubble 10 years ago. Incredible views at dusk!

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Brian Treasures from Grandmas.

[T-Satt]

I agree on the Promoted Listings. We are getting a nice bump from them ourselves. We have had 123 sales through Promoted Listings in the past month.

[omfug]

Like I said before when I initially saw that you sold the jacket for less than it was worth, I used to specialize in vintage denim–my partner would have advised me if I had found that jacket, he has had the brand before. 1920’s and older is considered very old in the denim world. I don’t blame you for not selling it, I would have really had to think long and hard about letting a mistake of that magnitude go–I have made some pricey mistakes, on an Italian pot worth at least double what I got for it (on auction) and a print that also was worth more than twice as much–I did ship those items because I still got hundreds of dollars for them.

[Simon]

Congratulations on that amazing jacket sale. That’s amazing.

My numbers for this week:

Total Items in Store: 2074
Items Sold: 43
Total Sales: $803
Cost of Items Sold: $106
Average Price Sold: $18.69
Average Cost of Item: $2.49
Highest Price Item Sold: $51.96 x 2 : ULTIMA V for PC and for Commodore 64
Number of items listed this week: 48
Average age of items in store (in days since listing): 287
Average number of days between listing and selling this week: 126
Median age of sales (in days, between listing and selling): 50
Sell-through rate (for the week): 2.07%
# of Hats Sold: 23 (53% of sales)

I’ve worked for a couple of online ecommerce companies over the last 5 years. One thing I noticed in recent years is that a lot of people are on their phones making purchases on the afternoon of Thanksgiving Day. To try and capitalize on this I started a sale in the middle of the day on Thanksgiving Day and I ended up making the most sales I’ve ever had in one day (14). I don’t know if it was a fluke. Black Friday was very quiet for me but then Saturday was another very busy day. This is not a particularly popular time of year for hat buying so I’m grateful for all my sales.

Hope every has a good week.

[Jay]

Congrats on the good week. Whats the update on your wife helping you. Hasn’t it been about a year now that she quit her job to help you?

[Simon]

Thanks Jay. Yes, my wife started listing on ebay so she wouldn’t have to go back to working in a retail job. I guess it’s been a year now. Our weekly eBay sales exceed what my wife would make in her job so it’s a win-win. She sticks to listing hats exclusively. I do all the sourcing, shipping, other business stuff and listing of everything except hats.

By the way, I meant to thank you guys for fixing the formatting of the forums so that it’s usable on a mobile phone. It’s soooo much better now.

[Jay]

That’s awesome that you guys made the transition to her going full-time eBay. Just selling hats replaces her income! Amazing!

All thanks to our new talented volunteer who’s helping us upgrade the forum.

[T-Satt]

We were slower on Thursday, but Friday picked back up and Saturday was when we finalized the Dicken’s Village sale for $5k. Can’t say that they were was a large effect, as our sales were in our normal range.

We did run a Promotion from Thursday through Monday with 20% off, and had $243 in sales so far through that promotion.

[LiveLikeNoOneElse]

Congrats on a phenomenal week. I hope your old denim jacket buyer can’t still come back and give negative feedback. Did he already leave positive feedback? I would have done the same, even if I did receive the negative.

[Utahbill]

Congratulations on the jacket sale. It was truly buried “treasure”

[Doublythumbs]

Nov. 19 – 25
Total Items in Store: 928
Items Sold: 16
Total Sales (Gross Profit): $415
Highest Price: $115 (Brown & Sharpe Micrometer Model 55 2″-6″ Set)
Average Price: $26
Returns: 0
Cost of Items Sold: $32
Costs of Items Purchased this Week: $341

Business really dropped off for me at the beginning of last week. I only sold three items up until Thanksgiving day. Then it was like the floodgate of sales opened up. But that’s not been unusual in my experience. It’s always dead right before a major holiday, but sales resume just like normal right afterwards.

We had a nice time off from work and went to a huge auction about 1.5 hours away from us. I ended up buying lots of glassware…one of the things I dread selling. But there wasn’t really much else to buy at this one. But my score of the week came that same day when I bought a box lot of almost 200 glass plate negatives from around 1910. I spent more than I anticipated – $155. But I think I’ll make my money back pretty easily enough judging by my sold item research.

In regards to your denim jacket sale, I truly believe you made the right call and it’s what I would have done. If I sold an item and I found that I underpriced it by $40 or $50, then yeah I would just consider it a lesson learned and forget it. But as in your case where it was over a grand, I would have lost some major sleep! From a business point of view, we’re in it to make money and I’m sure that customer would understand despite their anger for not getting a steal. Even a corporation like Walmart wouldn’t sell a 72” HD flat screen TV to a customer for $50 if there was a mistake with the price tag.

By the way, if you’re looking for more wool socks, I’ve had pretty good luck at TJMaxx and Marshalls. They’re usually “seconds,” but I’ve never had any issues with them. And I’ve found them for over half off the retail price, sometimes only $4 or $5 a pair. I usually don’t focus on name brand, but instead look at the wool percentages written on the package. I steer clear of anything less than 75% wool, but that’s just personal preference and depends on what you want to use the socks for. I’ve found SmartWool, Darn Tough, and Cabot and Sons for way cheap.

[Jay]

Wool socks FTW! I’ll check TJMaxx next time. Im addicted to Smart Wool.

[The Speckled Goat]

What I’ve learned about eBay over the last decade is that the “binding contract” aspect of the sale is BS. We’ve all had MULTIPLE buyers that haven’t followed through on a sale. It’s frustrating. But as they say, “cost of doing business” dealing with these deadbeats. And so we all move on and make our millions on eBay.

That said, when a seller backs out, ESPECIALLY SINCE IT’S BEEN ONLY ONCE IN OVER 8 YEARS, I say, we should get a pass as well. Right? That’s my feeling. Nonetheless, I cringed when you told the story.
What would I have done? THE EXACT SAME THING.
Caren
eBay ID: TheSpeckledGoatLLC

[SalarySlave]

I think you guys aren’t acknowledging just how shady what you did was.

If I was the original buyer I would have absolutely left a negative and called Ebay to report what you had done. It wasn’t a “mistake”, the buyer had more knowledge than you and took advantage of that to scoop up a deal, which is exactly what you and I do everyday when we buy stuff at yard sales and thrifts and flip it online.

How would you feel if someone you bought an item from at auction realized what it’s worth and came knocking on your door demanding it back because its worth 20x what you paid him for it?

I get it, it’s a super valuable item. If I was in your shoes I might do the same. But it’s super shady, especially trying to blackmail the buyer into not leaving a negative by telling them you’ll block them from bidding on it.

[Jay]

Understood. You feel strongly about this. Noted.
But as you said…”If I was in your shoes I might do the same. ”
So I guess there’s some degree of conflict within you, which is just what this podcast was about.

[So Cal Joe]

They did fully disclose what happened with the denim jacket sale. It’s tough to say what any of us would do if this situation occurred to us. I’d like to think I would take the high road and eat the loss.

The defect and negative feedback will surely be tough to fight. All you have to do is put yourselves in the shoes of the buyer to see that.

Here’s a link to an old forum regarding the same subject. https://www.scavengerlife.com/forums/topic/sold-it-way-too-low-what-would-you-do

I’m curious to see what the majority thinks.

Happy Holidays.

[Jay]

We said what happened.
–Initially sold for $60.
–Decided to cancel the sale.
–Resold for $1125.

Thanks for linking to our last conversation about this back in March.
This was my advice back then: https://www.scavengerlife.com/forums/topic/sold-it-way-too-low-what-would-you-do#post-13834

“I can understand your dilemma. I would do whatever will help you sleep at night.
–If cancelling a sale to resell it will make you feel shady, then honor the sale.
–If losing out on several hundred dollars because you didn’t know what you had makes you feel foolish cancel and relist as an auction.”

[Doublythumbs]

SalarySlave, I respect your opinion. But I feel I have to rebut. Your example is misleading and is missing a key factor: who has possession of the item and therefore who has the upper hand. In your argument, you’re describing a demand in refund after the transaction is complete. Money was exchanged and the goods were received. In that example, it would be absurd for the seller to demand a return. In J & R’s case, the money was received but the item hadn’t been sent therefore the transaction was still open in my eyes. eBay sort of changed the rules of business in a sense. With the payment method being almost entirely automated, sellers usually no longer have any interaction with buyers prior to sales. And we’re no longer held to the same standards of a person to person interaction.

I think the ground you’re trying to stand on is one of ethics. But ethics is not black or white. Were there some ethical gray area that Jay and Ryanne wondered into? Perhaps. They may even agree. But one could also say it was slightly unethical for the buyer to have tried to take advantage of an unusual low price of a high dollar item. He or she could have sent a message stating that they priced that item way too low. It was obvious he/she knew what it was worth when they offered to pay $600. But he/she didn’t. They tried to take advantage of a situation and it didn’t work the way they wanted it to. Sucks for them, but he/she didn’t lose anything either. You can feel sorry all you want for the person, but if I were in J&R’s shoes, I wouldn’t have thought twice about the decision they made. You said that you might have done the same thing as well, so I know you at least understand what was at stake. On one hand, you could let someone take advantage of you for monetary gain. Or on the other hand you could stop them and take the money for yourself. It’s not as black and white as that for sure, but maybe think of it as this… which was the lesser of two evils?

And blackmail? No way. I will block every person who leaves me negative feedback. That’s a fact. Why? Simply for passive aggressive reasons I’m sure, but that doesn’t matter. My point is, the buyer made a threat and Jay & Ryanne shot back a warning which was more than fair in my opinion. Shouldn’t you argue that the buyer was also initiating blackmail with the threat of negative feedback?

[Karen]

Okay so this is what I was getting at when you feel life is NOT fair. You don’t escape how you deal with it when your wearing your business hat. Unfortunately we bring our whole selves into everything we do. So I try to gain perspective when I am faced with any unfairness. I’m with Jay and Ryanne. I think I would feel that it was totally unfair to me, the seller. Its simply a business decision. Almost 1,200 more is worth a ding on your record. They don’t make a habit of it. As they said, this is the first time they have ever done it.

Also I wanted to thank Jay and Ryanne for your conversation on returns. Especially when you said to let the buyer come up with the dollar amount they would like to receive. On a $47 item, I was willing to give it ALL back except the shipping charge. He only wanted $17 back. I stayed calm and it turned out great. Thanks 🙂

[antarestar]

Last spring I found 16 pairs of Smartwool socks in the Goodwill bins. None of them were paired up so I probably spent an hour meticulously going through that bin of socks/undergarments/smalls one by one. Luckily our Goodwill outlet isn’t very competitive and no one else was interested in old socks so I was able to take my time.
Since I was paying by the pound I probably spent less than $5 for all of them. I thought about selling them but ultimately decided to keep them.

[Brian Treasures from Grandmas]

Interesting convo as I’m finishing up the podcast on % of your store that is high dollar. You’re absolutely right, you can’t sell something for $1000 if you don’t have something listed for $1000.

I just did a quick analysis of my store (currently 898 items):
– 559 listings under $30 (62%)
– 276 listings $30-$100 (31%)
– 62 listings over $100 (7%)

And then an analysis of my sales over the past 90 days (257 sales):
– 159 sales under $30 (62%)
– 84 sales $30-$100 (33%)
– 14 sales over $100 (5%)

Pretty astounding how close they mirror each other. So, presumably, if I get more $100+ inventory, I would also sell more $100+ items. But can a store survive with only that inventory? I would think not because the volume would be lower.

[Jay]

Can I store survive only on high dollar inventory? That’s the great question!
It all depends on what you mean by high dollar inventory.
I think our goal is to just boost the high dollar items within our store.
Its in addition to our bread and butter items.

Here’s the store many people sent me as an example:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/wwolst12/m.html?LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2046732.m1684

[T-Satt]

I think that it might be possible to only sell the high dollar items, but I think that is something that you have to build to.

For the most part, the high dollar items require the right buyers, and you have to be willing to wait longer for the higher price. I will have to figure out the average days listed for our $100+ items vs <$100 items. I am assuming that the higher dollar items will be longer tail, but I should try to prove that.

I would also guess warehousing space is an issue with the higher dollar items. I would think they are generally larger, require more care to keep in good shape, and again, assume that they are longer tail.

Your swings in seasonality will also potentially be larger, as I would assume to get in the higher dollar items, you would be in a smaller niche, so daily/weekly/monthly swings in sales would be higher.

I would think that if you CAN do this, getting a following is huge. I think the owner of this store was at eBay Open. If he is the same as the gentleman I talked to, it was having the reputation for quality that developed his following (if you will notice, almost 12,000 people are following the seller you listed). That can help drive the sales, plus easier to market outside of eBay (Pinterest, Instagram, Facebook, etc.)

But the goal of driving up the ASP is always one to work on! Improve the process to make listing efficient, then cash flow up for larger and better inventory. That is our plan…

[Brian Treasures from Grandmas]

It’s also interesting to note that you have to source the high dollar items. I find as much as I can at estate sales, flea markets, etc… but how much there is really super high dollar? The wwolst12 seller I believe you said is selling mainly consignment now. Yes, they built their reputation, but now have people bringing the items to them, therefore no longer needing to source as much. That’s a huge piece of the equation that is solved for them specifically.

[ChristineR]

I agree with this and it’s my goal too, especially since I’m just time-challenged. Better ASP and better velocity. As I mentioned, I think R&J can achieve that by doing longer city sourcing trips. Sounds like you are considering it. “)

[Jay]

Yes, we’re sometimes slow to understand, but I think you’re right that buying in a city might have advantages for higher dollar items.

[maybel9]

You guys! That jacket was a message from the universe that you need to do auctions occasionally– only under the right circumstances. I think the right circumstances would be an item that is unique and you have nothing to compare with. ALWAYS start the auction high, as high as you would have set the Buy It Now price. Then you have lost nothing– no risk in comparison with BIN.

I would have done the same thing– said that it was a mistake and relisted as auction.

I did choose to eat a $500 mistake one time (had a $1000 email offer on an amber necklace that I had sold as BIN for $500.) I have chosen to eat other mistakes as well. But $1000 is a lot of money, and I see nothing unethical about what you did. Airlines don’t always honor their mistake airfares, by the way.

[AdventureE]

Personally, I am really surprised you guys shared the story because what occurred does not seem consistent with the general selling thought pattern that has been shared in here.

I am surprised that the buyer (who you noted is also a seller) did not try to pursue the case through ebay. It would seem to me that ebay would have probably taken some action that may have resulted in a loss of the money you earned by canceling the sale after you agreed to it and then putting the item back up for auction. It may have also resulted in some action taken on your account.

[Jay]

I was wondering when the comments on this were going to come in 🙂

AdventureE, I’m surprised you’re surprised we talked about this. We acknowledge this was a tough decision and were open about it. Just like all other aspects of selling we share over the years. This podcast is more about our week to week decisions than a marketing vehicle about how great we are. Obviously this week is a great example of that.

And as far as this going against what we’ve said in the past, someone linked to advice we gave about this exact same situation back in March: https://www.scavengerlife.com/forums/topic/sold-it-way-too-low-what-would-you-do#post-13834

“I can understand your dilemma. I would do whatever will help you sleep at night.
–If cancelling a sale to resell it will make you feel shady, then honor the sale.
–If losing out on several hundred dollars because you didn’t know what you had makes you feel foolish cancel and relist as an auction.”

We’re sleeping well.

[AdventureE]

Jay,
I am not surprised you talked about it (as you noted – you and Ryanne are both very open about your lives and business experiences), but I am surprised by what was shared. You and Ryanne have both consistently infused good business practices, good customer service, and follow through into the podcasts and forums. You have also both infused that although the money is important, it still about following through as business people and providing good customer service – allowing returns because you want the customer to be happy with their purchase eventhough you lose the monies from the sale and have to relist the item. While this was not a return, the concept was the same – a sale was made and completed and even in the process of being shipped out. Once the money changed hands, the only thing left to do was to send the item and to provide good follow-up customer service if needed.

Can you imagine going somewhere to make a purchase, making the purchase, and then as you are walking out the door with your purchase having the sales person stop you to ask for more money and telling you that you can not have the purchased item unless you pay more? IF I recall correctly, a similar situation actually happened to you when you were buying an item and the seller realized he undervalued the item and tried to get more money from you.

And you are right, it is not about marketing yourself and how great you are but many of us look to you guys and this forum to help guide us in our selling practices and experiences. I think every seller has to decide what business practices they abide by.

[almasty]

I don’t see anywhere in the help pages that says it is against Ebay’s policy to do this?

Cancel transactions
Occasionally, you may need to cancel a transaction, for instance, if the item is broken or you are out of stock.
What to do
Select the correct reason for canceling a transaction.
What not to do
Select the wrong cancelation reason in order to avoid a defect on your account.

That’s about the extent of it, as far as I can see.

FWIW, I would’ve cancelled the sale after the fact and put it on auction, as well. That’s just too much of a difference to let slide.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by almasty.

[T-Satt]

Very tough situation you were in with that Denim Jacket sale. Since you asked the question of “What Would We Do?”…

If we were in that situation, we would have honored the original sale for $60. Our thought was that at the time the sale was complete (payment), you didn’t know how valuable the jacket was. Learning after the fact (after they paid) doesn’t change that. Was it an expensive mistake? Possibly. You still would have made money on the deal, but not as much as you could have if you had known how valuable it was beforehand. The only “loss” is in the lost Opportunity Cost.

But how many valuable items have we all passed up in garage sales, thrift stores, etc. because we didn’t know how valuable they were? I’m sure we all do it all the time. And we bank on the fact that most of the rest of the population passes on them as well. And we love the fact that we are willing to learn more about items and put in the work to sell items at a profit. That knowledge is how we make our living. And sometimes…others will do it to us if they know more. There is always a bigger fish…

For Veronica and I, we always think that the right thing is if it works in the reverse. The best analogy I can think of is that if you were at a garage sale, found that jacket on sale for $60, you KNEW that it was worth hundreds if not $1000, you paid $60 (planning to flip it for huge profit on eBay), when another buyer at the payment table tells the seller what it was really worth, then the seller says “here is your $60, I obviously made a mistake, so the sale is void”. I can only imagine how that would have looked.

Would you have honored their request, after you had paid for the item?

I know that as a buyer in that situation, after I paid, the deal should be done. So if I would have expected the deal to go through as a buyer, then I have to honor the deal as a seller. For us, that is the line. You pay the money, the deal is done.

End of the day, this is just our opinion. And it is worth what you paid for it…zero. We are all free to do things as we would like. Can I tell you how to run your store? Nope. I love the phrase in the hiking world “Hike Your Own Hike”. Meaning that we should all do things in our own way, and we get the rewards and punishments as a result of those decisions. No two hikers carry the same gear, do things the same way, etc. But we can learn by asking others how they do things, and then decide what is best for us. Just like you did by asking this question.

Still lots of love for you guys, love what you do, and the service that you guys provide. Just a professional disagreement. Heck, we are still in disagreement on a lot of things: GTC vs 30 Day, List & Forget It vs List and Attend It, Mannequin vs Floor…

Just par for the course… LOL!

[Jay]

You’re a better man than me. $1125 is more than my mortgage. This mistaken sale would have haunted us for the rest of our lives.

It’s fascinating to see everyone’s reactions.

[T-Satt]

Completely agree. It is a very interesting dilemma. And I’m very sure the debate has just begun! LOL!

Veronica and I were listening to this podcast this morning and when you said you cancelled the sale, we both looked at each other and we said “NOPE!”. But that is us, and that is how we would react.

And for you, even at that level, that decision isn’t life changing. You never have trouble paying your bills now, so the amount of money shouldn’t matter. Otherwise, we start asking the question “How much money does it take to cancel the sale? $10? $100? $1000? Is the right answer predicated on how many zeros are involved? If so, why?”

For us, if we had cancelled the sale, THAT would have haunted US.

I remember playing in a poker game one time, and the pot grew to over $2,000 (and this is a $1-$2 game). At the turn, I realize that I’m beat, and finally have to fold the hand. When the river card hit the table, I would have won the hand (with my full house beating the other two full houses). Do I still remember the hand? Yep. Was folding the hand when I had a 4% chance of winning still the best decision at the time? Yep. Does it bother me that I lost that money. Nope. I can’t focus on lost money like that. Learn my lessons day by day and move forward.

But I love the discussion and the different perspectives. Helps us learn.

If we all have the same perspective on things, then we aren’t learning from each other…

[HomeDecorGuy]

$50 to $1,000 ???? Yes, I would have canceled the sale in a heartbeat, you had to.. I bought something extremely rare like that once from a yard sale. Sold it immediately, shipped it, then found out what it was worth a few days later.

[amazingtaste]

It’s an interesting question of “what would you do”. I would have have honored the sale and Matt would have canceled. Anyhow I applaud you both for being honest and sharing the story. It would have been just as easy to say the original buyer didn’t pay and that you relisted. No one here would have been the wiser. I appreciate your honesty and openness to have the conversation! Back to listing. 🙂

[HomeDecorGuy]

I’m surprised the ‘wrong color’ situation isn’t more common – especially with clothes. Ebay should have a Pantone Color Chart on their site that all sellers and buyers can refer to… Sellers can just refer to the Pantone color code that best matches the product they are selling.

[T-Satt]

That is a GREAT idea! It could especially expand out the shades of each color and help the buyers out. Monitors are all the same. Our shipping computer tends more to the blue side, so sometimes we have to triple check an item to make sure it is the right one.

[skydog]

My numbers for the week:
Week of Nov. 19-25, 2017
Total Items in Store: 478
Items Sold: 20
Cost of Items Sold: $59
Total Sales: $505
Highest Price Sold: $70 (Adidas black, shell toe, Superstar bb shoes)
Average Price Sold: $25.25
Returns: 1
Money Spent on New Inventory This Week: $87
Number of items listed this week: 24
Sold prices do not include shipping charges (we do not offer free shipping).

Store ratio: 2/3 used clothing, 1/3 non-clothing/yard sale type items.
Net “profit” for the week, $355 (after all fees and purchase costs). Average net sale $17.75, this week, ($17-$18 usually). Ave. profit per hour, $27 (includes listing & shipping 3-5 items per 2 hours worked), ave. is $25-$30 per hour.

Had another great week selling snow boots and other cold weather items. Still have about 1/2 of inventory priced at 15% off to get things moving and to sell winter items before Christmas. Money spent on new inventory during 4 thrift store visits, and should bring in $500-600 in future sales.

Last week, a cashier at a thrift complimented me on my blanket lined, jeans jacket I was wearing. Told him I bought it at his company. And the jeans I was wearing, and the sweatshirt, and the belt and shoes ($18 total!).

[Geoff]

11/19/17-11/26/17

Tough week. Had my store on vacation mode a good portion of it with a return date of the Monday after holiday – not sure if that effected sales. I did identify an issue with our calculated shipping where we were not offering FedEx smart post for a lot of listings that by adding really improved our shipping costs – hopefully that helps as it was a big slip up on my part. We did see 5 sales already this week so hopefully it is a sign of things to come.

The recent conversations that Jay has been toting around focusing on bigger inventory has gotten me thinking — as the last 2 months i have been bogging myself down on one estate i purchased that has stuff of lower values and longer tail. Earlier in the year one thing i did pretty well was source bigger items — and my sales were a lot better then — so i am taking the initiative to do sourcing everyday and focusing almost entirely on big items (with some balance on smaller stuff to keep the funnel going as needed) While I did not have the biggest listing week last week with the holidays my emphasis on bigger items went well and already flipped a keyboard 70 dollars to 170 one day online. Back to it and looking to hit my listing goal of 100 items for the week to get back on track.

Total items in store (beginning of week): 861
Items sold: 5
Weekly sell through: % 0.58
Total Sales: $195.4 (no shipping)
Average price: $39.08
Cost of items sold: $31.91
Gross profit: $156.32
Highest item sold: MICROSOFT SURFACE PRO 3 LOGIC MOTHERBOARD X883815-010 + Housing w/ Battery etc.. (86.00 cost, 0 dollar cost.)
New items listed: 4
Asking price of new items listed: $1029.00
Cost of new items listed: $210.00

[DigVintageStuff]

I would honour the sale. It’s simply the right thing to do.

I love your podcasts and admire your transparency and honesty, but I feel sad that you cancelled the sale.

Sure, no one likes to feel like they are ‘losing money’, but actually the original selling price is the one you set based on the research you had done and your experience. You set it at a level you were happy to accept, given the work you had put into it. The original buyer just knew more about the item than you did.

This information imbalance is one of the things that enables us to do what we all do. In fact, we completely rely on it to buy our stock at a low enough price to profit from the re-sale. I think we have to accept that sometimes we will be the ones who do not realise the ‘full value’ of something.
That feeling when something sells really quick is always a mixed one. Great, it sold, but – oh no, I priced it too cheap! I am a fool and I know nothing! We just have to learn from it for next time.

Doing business online provides a de-humanising distance which can lead us to behave in ways we wouldn’t dream of behaving face to face, with real human beings. Imagine that the original buyer is someone in your community. Someone you shared your Thanksgiving meal with. Someone with whom you wish to build community.
Do you still cancel?

$1, $100, $1,000 or $10,000 +++ makes no difference.
Good business practice and integrity have no price tag.

[omfug]

DigVintageStuff you make a very compelling case as well–it is exactly what we do in our business, I once found a pair of prints at a yard sale for $50 that I sold for $35,000 did I feel bad for the seller? yes, but you are right, I knew more than he did and that was my reward. What pisses me off are all the aholes who contacted J&R after the sale–they were jealous that the first buyer “scored” and set out to ruin him for it, and so they did. I have had that happen to me before as well, “helpful” ebayer’s telling me I had undersold something after the fact (pity they didn’t contact me while the item was up, LOL) Yes shaky moral ground in many ways–I found you reply very thoughtful.

[The Speckled Goat]

T-Satt:
“By doing that, does the buyer of the original item get a second shipping notice from eBay?”

I would guess yes, and I never thought of this. I would make a lousy criminal, obviously.

Caren
eBay ID: TheSpeckledGoatLLC

[T-Satt]

LOL!!! Not always a bad thing!

When I was in college studying accounting, I was part of a group of students that my auditing professor was both proud and terrified about. We would challenge ways to get around checks and balances in the system to stifle auditors from finding things. He was sometimes really nervous…

[BethGreen]

My numbers for the week of 11/19/17:
Total Items in Store: 99
Items Sold: 16
Cost of Items Sold: $54
Total Sales: $495 + shipping
Highest Price Sold: $65 tie (Christmas luminary & Camo Hunting Vest)
Average Price Sold: $30.94
Returns: 0

If I have an item that I can’t find info on, that is always going to get listed as an auction the first time around. I put a high starting bid and let it go. Even if it doesn’t sell, you can tell alot by the interest in gets in watchers and views. If it doesn’t sell but gets a lot of attention, you can figure your starting price was close, or even accurate and you just need the right buyer. Then you know where to price it as a BIN. And if there is no interest, at least you know it is not one of those rare “denim jackets”. You don’t have to know everything if you use Auctions wisely. And I have said it before but starting a $.99 Auction on a sure thing item (one that you are very aware of the going price on and that has high sell through) generally ends in a higher than average sale price and seems to boost sales across the board…like a loss leader without loosing anything.

[Geoff]

On the sale — just curious, does worthpoint (7 years back) have any data on the item? Apologies if that was covered on the podcast i was in and out packing the car while listening. Personally i think it is well worth the money if you are selling professionally – not just for avoiding mistakes — it just saves sooo much time as well.

Great podcast. It too would honor the sale.

[Jay]

Nothing on Worthpoint. Sometimes things are just rare.

[Idahoarder]

Store Week 11/19/17 – 11/25/17
Total items in store: 1642
Items sold: 16
Cost of items sold: $33.73
Total sales: $503.91
Highest price sold: $100.00 (Vintage quilt top)
Average price sold: $31.49
Returns: 0
Money spent on new inventory this week: $3.00

I’ve worked in retail for the last 24 years and this was the first Thanksgiving/Black Friday that I’ve had off in probably that many years (or very close to it), all thanks to eBay! It was a glorious holiday – I didn’t get up and leave the dinner table early to go to work, I relaxed and made pies, and I even went shopping myself on Friday. eBay is definitely something I’m thankful for this year!

My sales weren’t exactly exciting last week, which was probably closely related to my relaxed holiday break. But it was totally worth the time with family. And this week is off to a good start. Cyber Monday is treating me alright!

Also, I haven’t quite finished the podcast, but I’m totally in awe of the jacket sale! That’s a tough call, but I think it might be worth the possible bad feedback to get that sale (although I’d feel pretty bad). I sold a pristine jean jacket last year that I knew was good, even though it wasn’t Levi’s. But I put it up for I think $300 or so and it sold instantly (as did a Levi’s denim hat that I sold for $250). I think I’ll definitely try the auction route next time I find good denim. Thanks for another great podcast!

[annabel52]

I wish I had the problem with the $1000+ denim jacket!!!
But the people who have commented and said you were wrong are welcome to their opinion. And it’s just that their opinion, everyone has one. No one knows what they would do until they are faced with a similar situation.
I personally applaud you for the fact that you shared your story with everyone. You could have just let the sale pass and never comment. But you put it out there for all to see. When everything is said and done it is your decision and yours alone.
At this point in my ebay store I would have done the same thing. That sale alone is more than I have made in each of the last three months. When you have to work ebay alone and work around taking care of your sick husband, something will suffer. And it won’t be my husband. My house, my lawn, my ebay store but not my SweetiePie!! I’m fine with ebay the way it is for me now. I just need to be able to source higher profit items again.

[simplicio]

Wow, cool podcast. I was actually wondering about that jacket because I was creeping on your solds on that Monday morning and saw it. Nice sale!

I had a good week on eBay, terrible week at home. Us and the two kids got a nasty stomach flu that stuck with us from Thursday to Monday, and I’m still quite weak from it.

Sales: CAD$653, 10 items, $65/item average
COGS: $138
Expenditures: $104
Net profit: $298
Listed: $1310, 9 items
Notable sales: perfume $25–>$125. This is the first time I tried selling perfume, looking good! That $25 paid for 3 more bottles that are also listed. Otherwise, just a lot of bread & butter stuff, as you say.
Didn’t scavenge anything all that amazing.

[no1uno]

R & J, I grew up in rural W.V., and my grandfather wore this style jacket. He was a carpenter, but it was a commonly used jacket, all occupations. I recall referring to it as a ‘railroad’ jacket, I suppose because it was standard attire for railroad crews. Based on where you live, this may be one of more you find. Good luck. BTW, the real take away for me in this sale is the way Ryanne handled unravelling and reconstructing the transaction. Well done!!!

[Jay]

Yep. That’s probably how it was used around here. The collectors call it a “chore jacket” because it has the front pockets to hold tools.

Are you still in rural WV?

[no1uno]

Yeh, ‘chore jacket’ would be more accurate.
This discovery makes me wonder what else I’ve passed on without investigating potential. Little wake up call.

Better described as “back” in Morgantown, WV after being in Fla. and Ga. for 40 yrs +/-.

[Jay]

I think the jacket we found was a unicorn because someone bought this jacket decades ago and then stored it in a closet. Most clothes pre-war dont make it to the thrift stores in that shape.

WV gets a lot of grief, but I really like Morgantown.

[Mark S]

What would I do in this case with the jacket? This us a difficult question because I’m not sure if it is just a business issue or a moral issue.

This happened to me in a different way. My lister accidentiasly llisted a $90 pair of shoes for about $25 and they sold right away. I merely saw it as a business decision. I thought it wouldnt be worth a defect at that time because i would lose TRS status, so i sent the shoes.

So, if this is merely a business decision, then I think J & R did the right thing.

But what if this is a moral issue? Then it us either black and white or gray. If it is a black and white moral issue, then I agree with T-Satt, it doesn’t matter how much money it is, right is right at any price.

But if this is a moral gray issue, then I believe there are two principles to guide us. 1. Do you have to lie to make it work? If so, then I believe it is wrong. 2. Dont go against what your conscience says. God gave us a conscience to guide us. If you go against what your what your conscience says, then I believe it is wrong. As the famous Monk said many years ago, “to go against conscience is neither right nor safe”.

So to me the real question here is to define what type of issue we are facing here.

Mark

[Jay]

What is surprising is the amount of moralizing and finger wagging I see. Especially over on Youtube. A whole lot of the ‘disappointed dad’ outrage.

Some people are claiming they’d knowingly ship out a mistake of any amount. Even $1,000,000. It’s easy to say when the situation isnt real. I guess they are only ones who would really know if they would if that situation were to ever arise.

I’m glad we asked this question because its fun to see the answers. Helps us get to know everyone here who posts regularly.

[T-Satt]

Completely agree. It is always easy to talk about hypothetical situations. There is an entire industry that does that (football analysis shows).

Just remember, that every minute you think about what others think is taking away 5 minutes of your time on getting your own stuff done. And when you are online, there are a lot of people that love to flex digital muscles.

I love the perspective of the different answers as well, and I’m glad this all came up. We are not all the same, so having different thoughts on how to handle different situations is what helps us learn.

Keep up the great work!

[almasty]

I guess all the nay-sayers are independently wealthy and just doing this for fun. I also don’t understand how “morality” plays into this. Most people just like using any excuse to complain and throw shade, even when there’s really no issue to be complaining about.

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

almasty… as I just posted. You are correct it is not about morality. It is about business ethics and greed. The sheer desire for more money at any cost and even if that means maybe gravitating into the area of unscruoplous or maybe even criminal activity, if it can be proven that a legal transaction took place.

Wonder what a lawyer would say to all of this.

mc at mdcg

[Incompetent Picker]

I’m curious, why didn’t you price this mega high with best offer like you usually do? It’s very possible you left another 1k on the table. Note the four players bidding in the last few minutes of the auction. After the buzz that was created after the first sale, maybe deep research and consultation would’ve been the way to go?

[Jay]

Good question. We did what we thought was best. It’s all a learning process.

[Geoff]

well thanks for being so forthright about the story. We are all chiming in including myself about what we would do from the cheap seats – like that is fair. Really cool find and really great story.

Is this your most memorable flip?

[Incompetent Picker]

I had a similar sale some years ago. A partner and I had bought out an estate that included a 1920’s era musical instrument in it’s original case. We had a lot of merchandise to process and my partner listed this item in haste, pricing it way to low. It was purchased in the first hour and when I saw the sold price, well, I’ll just say I wasn’t very happy with my partner.

Agonized over it for awhile but ultimately came to the same conclusion you two did. I messaged the buyer and apologized citing a pricing error. Wow were they hot and I don’t blame them. He was a professional vintage instrument dealer and he had already resold it to a client. Threats were made, angry emails he sent and knowing I really didn’t have a leg to stand on all I could do was continue to apologize but stay firm.

Long story short, we sold the instrument for about $900 more and in an effort to clear my business conscience I sent him a snail mail apology letter with a $200 check. Never heard from him again and I was at peace with the issue.

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

Well.. think I will chime in here by way of coming from left field. Do you think you may have committed a criminal act or broached business ethics. Forget the moral issue.

Here are some examples.

#1: I have an object and exchange that for financial renumeration. At the point of exchange that is a legal transaction and the ownership of that object becomes mine. To take that item back without my consent might be called theft.

#2: I bid on 12 items at an auction. That jacket is one of the items and sells to me for $50. The moment that auctioneers hammer hits the table, that object is mine. Then I go pay for my goods at the desk. At that moment of object and the exchange of legal tender, the title to those goods become mine, no if and’s or but’s, legally all of those items are mine. BUT then I drive around back to pick up my items and I find only 11 of them and a note with a $50 bill taped to it and it say’s sorry we decided that we are not going to let this item go to you. At that point I don’t care what the reason is, I would call the police and report a stolen item. [I am just making a point here]. The reason of course could be that the auctioneers wife saw the jacket from the back of the aution house, looked it up on her phone, saw a real high true value and then called the auctioneer on his phone, told him about what she found and he went around to the loading dock and took the item back. Who cares. Legally it was mine at sale. He “stole” it back, and even if he gave me a flimsy excuse like, we couldn’t find it after we took it off the auction floor, or it was dad’s favorite jacket. Who care’s it was mine not his at that point. Your mistake my gain.

#3 Same type of scenario. I sell that jacket to you for $50, not knowing or doing my research. The buyer knows what it is from the get go. Offers me $50. I hand him the jacket and he hands me the money. Business ethics wise, that object’s ownership has now transffered to that buyer. H goes out to his truck and lays that jacket on the hood of his truck, then goes acroos the street to another sale. You then go inside your house, decide to look that item up and discover it is worth $100,000.00. So you run back outside. Two scenarios here. One is he has driven off and the object and the buyer is gone forever and you are out of luck. OR … the jacket is still on his truck, you see he is across the street and not paying attention. You take it back and tape a $50 to his car and go back inside. He comes back and his jacket is gone. He comes up to your door, knocks and ask’s you what happened. At this point everything and anything you say is just an excuse. The deal was legal and completed. You stole the jacket back and renegged on the deal. Very unethical business wise.

Now to the question of is an exchange of an object for money a legal transaction. I did some quick research and believe it is. As soon as the Ebay “Cha-Ching” was heard and the money went into a PayPal account it is the same as the auction gavel coming down. done deal. Finished. You either “honor” the deal or you don’t.

In just my opinion what drives the backing out of the deal would be if I was just over come with greed and decided to act unethically in order to remove the possesion of someone else’s property, cover my tracks with an excuse and then reap rewards from that greed. I would be very uneasy about it.

Now I am not saying any of this to cast any aspursions on anybody. Jay, you asked for opinions and this is what has come across my mind since yesterday.

If the shoe was on the other foot and you were the buyer in all 3 of the above scenarios how would you feel to see that object removed from you possession by any means and end up with out the object and your $50 back?

Also considering this I might ask, have you considered maybe sending that person that had an object removed from his possessionn and then resold at a large [rofit thus loosing his “opportunity” maybe a $250 offering? Sort of like a lottery ticket winner who gets the numbers from someone else?

Just saying… this is a very interesting topic and a touchy one. I would also think that maybe some research into what constitues a legal transaction and once I found out for sure, then yes, I would have honored my original deal. That is just how I conduct business. My dad was a minister and if I shake hands and agree to something, especially in exchange for something, then it is finialized and carried out.

Now I hope I don’t get jumped on here for just talking out loud and again, no offense or malice intended. Just an Arsinio Hall moment of thinking… HHhhmmm.

mike at MDC Galleries in Atlanta

[Jay]

I think people are getting confused.
We’re asking “what would you do”.
It’s infinitely interesting to hear people say they’d walk away from a $1,000,000 sale because they made a mistake. Good for them! All the Preacher’s will be happy!

We’re not asking “Do you think we’re bad people?”
Don’t care about people’s thoughts on this. We’re perfectly fine with our choices and openly talk about them here in public.

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

Ok, not calling you bad. I said I think it was more of a business ethics situation not a “preacher / moral” thing, who cares about that. No, I wouldn’t do it because I would have never gotten suspicious just because of a quick sale.

By the way there are others on Worthpoint, but there must be something different about this one.

mc at mdcg

[AdventureE]

There are varied perspectives on this situation.

Sometimes it is good to just go to the source for clarification.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html#3

[T-Satt]

“It’s infinitely interesting to hear people say they’d walk away from a $1,000,000 sale because they made a mistake.”

So true. Like when I hear people say that actors or professional athletes are overpaid. They may be, but would any of us turn down those salaries if they were offered to us? Very easy to say, but if we are never in that situation, we are never put to the test.

You were put to an interesting test. This is life, there isn’t a “right” answer most of the time, just how you react. You did something that was legal (based on my view), so the rest is just talk. Some would do what you did, some wouldn’t, but in the end, it is all armchair quarterbacking.

No worries man, and I commend you for bringing this up, as it is an interesting topic. Such is the life of a celebrity. There are a lot of haters out there that would not want to have an open internet forum on the decisions they make…

[Incompetent Picker]

Jay, as a related side note, when you guys begin buying and selling more expensive things, especially if you wade into the murky waters of antiques and collectibles you will bump up against these ethical dilemmas. It is amazing how trusting some people can be and the opportunities to take advantage of them just because you can will come up. I know you guys won’t because I think you’re good people, but the temptations are strong.

[Jay]

As we experiment with buying antiques at auctions, we’ll definitely be doing our research better. I think this denim jacket just fell into the listing machine where everything is a known quantity.

We may even start trying auctions more. Crazy! Anything can happen!

[T-Satt]

I have only been to a few antique auctions, but the people there remind me of a lot of the ones when I went with my dad each weekend to the cattle auctions. Smile and be friendly…and keep your hand on your wallet…

My dad had a mentor when he started ramping up his cattle business. I will never forget the last lesson he taught my dad. My dad was selling a horse to his mentor, and when he dropped off the horse, his mentor handed him an envelope with the cash in it. My dad put the envelope in his jacket pocket and they kept talking. Finally his mentor said “Are you going to count it?” My dad replied “No. We are good friends. I trust you.” Mentor said “Count it.”

It was $400 short.

That was his last lesson. Hence my philosophy of Trust…but verify.

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

IP… guess that is what we all do at thrifts. We have found several items in the past year or so that was scribed “Tiffany’s” on the bottom. We bought for $2.19 and sold for hundreds. So, it is the same thing.

Also when I buy art prints, I know when I have a hundred bucks in my hand and it has a $2 sticker on it. I don’t do what the “American Picker” Mike Wolfe does and say, “OH it is worth a lot more than that” and then offer a lot more. I pay the $2 and smile all the way to the bank. So the door swings both ways.

Guess it falls into the category of “Knowledge is Power” type of thing.

mc at mdcg

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by MDC Galleries & Fine Art.

[T-Satt]

Mike, you are bringing the legal side to it which I thought of as well, but didn’t want to touch on at all. I ain’t a lawyer and don’t pretend to be one on the internet…

Being my old accounting self, this to me is a discussion of FOB Shipping Point or FOB Destination. FOB stands for Free On Board, but it stands for when possession legally passes from seller to buyer in the transaction.

Based on how I see eBay operate, I believe that they are FOB Destination, meaning that legal possession does not pass until it arrives at the buyers location. Based on how I see that sellers can cancel sales, and the fact that we as sellers are responsible for the item reaching the buyer’s door, I’m sure that eBay acts as FOB Destination. Think of the times that we have given something to USPS, they lose it, and we have to eat it. Why? FOB Destination. Right (and responsibility) to the item does not pass until it reaches it’s destination.

If eBay was FOB Shipping Point, then we would NOT have the right to cancel a sale after the money has been paid for, and we would NOT be responsible if the item doesn’t get delivered (since possession passed at the Shipping Point).

I think Jay & Ryanne are fine legally on this, since eBay is set up as FOB Destination (which makes the most sense overall). I think you and I think about our sales as FOB Shipping Point (meaning once it is paid for, the deal is done).

Ahh, the tangled webs that happen in business!

PS – Interesting concept on the Karma of sending the original buyer a bone… That would be something Veronica would bring up!

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

Yeah, that was what I was getting at. I was not meaning “bad people”, just I think there is a legal issue side to it. It my previous business where we shipped multiple tractor trailers daily to world wide accounts our FOB was Freight on Board as it left our loading dock and entered into the trailer. But good point about where does the FOB start or end.

I have had to cancel before, but it was due to a breakage or “lost item” we couldn’t find. If FOB means that J&R retain rightful and legal ownership until it is delivered then they can cancel for whatever reason, even no reason and be done with it. But guess you can see what I was getting at. If the buyer owns it at point of payment then the seller has no right to do anything with it, except, deliver it.

According to Wiki … A financial transaction is an agreement, or communication, carried out between a buyer and a seller to exchange an asset for payment.

It involves a change in the status of the finances of two or more businesses or individuals. The buyer and seller are separate entities or objects, often involving the exchange of items of value, such as information, goods, services, and money. It is still a transaction if the goods are exchanged at one time, and the money at another. This is known as a two-part transaction: part one is giving the money, part two is receiving the goods.

So I told Jay I wouldn’t do it based on the bold info. above. I offered, they gave, I got and deposited, done deal, it’s his.

But still a very interesting scenario and question Jay asks.

mc at mdcg

[Incompetent Picker]

Mike, T-Satt has it right. eBay transactions are FOB destination meaning title of ownership does not change hands until tangible goods have been received by buyer. Seller is de facto owner while items are in transit and responsible for items safe arrival in a reasonable time frame (I think 30 days?). These transactions are governed by the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) at least for transactions within the USA.

This issue has come up time and time again when people argue about who is responsible for insuring the package and in every case the seller is responsible for the safe and timely arrival of the item. Item damaged or lost in transit? Too bad so sad for the seller, buyer will be made whole by eBay, PayPal or their credit card company. It’s up to the seller to make an insurance claim and in many cases will need the buyers help.

[T-Satt]

Yep. I lost out on a $150 sale to Saudi Arabia since they lost the package. My loss (though makes me consider the Global Shipping Program!).

My old company did have one customer that was FOB Shipping Point, so once we printed the BOL after the truck was loaded, sale was complete. But they also provided all the trucks and arranged all the shipment, so it made sense.

We all treat our businesses as FOB Shipping Point (since after we get paid and ship it out, we feel it is done), but in reality, we are FOB Destination. If we were ever audited, and if it was material, we would have to look at all shipments made before year-end but are scheduled to arrive AFTER year end, and reverse those sales out of the current year and put them in the next year.

Yeah. I did that for 13+ years, every quarter-end. For thousands of transactions each time…

I don’t miss that part of the job! LOL!

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

T-Satt wouldn’t the “accrual” accounting method take care of that? Once we shipped we invoiced within hours. Then that invoice fell into the accrual of the final months figures.

Also our CFO operated as well as the IRS that as a manufacturer that anything that was past the 50% point of being made, meaning after printing and finishing, that it was not an asset but we could invoice and that became receivables. Then at year end was tallied as “receivables” to us even if still in house in the loading doc area. But I could be wrong and I am going back a few years now and maybe just can’t remember accurately.

mc at mdcg

[T-Satt]

No, we were on Accrual Accounting (and it was an accrual entry that I was making). If we had been Cash, it wouldn’t have been a sale until the buyer paid, and THEN it would automatically take place.

Our system is FOB Shipping Point. Once you print the BOL, it is a sale and inventory is decremented. We had a table that had the transit times from every plant to every customer. So we had to run the report for every sale that was BOL printed before month-end but based on the transit table would arrive after month end, and then make an accrual entry to move the sale to it’s arrival date…except for the customers that were on FOB Shipping Point.

We had to reverse them out of the reversal.

Fun times…

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

Thanks .. IP. Then that settles that are far as the ownership goes and that the owner can do whatever they want legally until delivery is made. That nullifies my examples and removes Jay and Ryanne from the “most wanted list”. LOL.

Funny thing, my wife Susan read this and her comments were, I am over here photographing our Sunday Haul and I am over here wasting time posting on forums. Then said I was a “piece of work”, shook her head and went back to the photography booth, mumbling something about “I should be listing” .. HaHa LOL

Mike at MDC Galleries in Atlanta

[T-Satt]

Sounds like my house some days… LOL!!!

Yeah, and I have said that to myself so many times…”I should be listing”… LOL!

[tam from Tam’s Vintage & More]

I think you guys handled it well! If it ever happens to me I will handle it the same way!

[Pam in Indianapolis]

I haven’t read all of the comments yet so I don’t know if anyone recommended a show on Netflix called “Blue Gold”. It’s all about a man who buys and sells jeans and he travels a lot to Japan to auction them off. So I am not surprised that someone from Japan bought the jacket.

[Jay]

It’s on our list to things to watch. Thanks for the recommendation.

[The Speckled Goat]

Funniest line in the whole thread:

“A whole lot of the ‘disappointed dad’ outrage”. LOL X 10,000.

Some sad collateral damage from all of this: My irrational fear of listing a $1000 item for $50 (which causes me to diddle away hours doing ridiculous amounts of research on what usually turns out to be a $20 item) has now been fanned into a flaming fireball of stupidity.

I want to hire your helper. Or a shrink. Or both.
Caren
eBay ID: TheSpeckledGoatLLC

[Inglewood]

I would do the same thing for an extra $50 on the jacket, let alone $1000.

I’ve had a lot worse things done to me for the sake of money or worthless objects by other people. People I know, politicians, my employers, family, etc. don’t follow through on promises all the time – I couldn’t care less if I made a stranger across the country mad for $1000 and they are out nothing they didn’t have 2 seconds before the eBay sale.

$1000 is life changing money to me – that’s 2 weeks less I would have to work in my life, it would be a huge chunk off my mortgage. Getting an extra $1000 any day would be the greatest day of the year for me – especially if it only means burning a non-existent bridge with a complete stranger.

[ChristineR]

Total Items in Store: 432
Items Sold: 20
Cost of Items Sold: $263 + $35 free shipping
Total Sales: $932
Highest Price Sold: $170 (Plates from last year’s day after Christmas sale Plate Set
Average Price Sold: $47
Money Spent on New Inventory This Week: $250+ (Part 2 Indy thrift Xmas boutique plus some online RA)
Number of items listed this week: 16

Great week for me, though some days were completely dead. Saturday was the best day. Friday felt like no sales. This time of year is so busy it’s like whack-a-mole. What do I need to take care of next? The post office drop bin is always full and people drive like crap. My kids also inadvertently downloaded a bunch of bugs in our computer and my credit card number was relayed. Still trying to fix that and we are not techies. So, ground my listing to halt and I’m shipping on the phone and posting this at work on a break. Enjoyed the shopping binge up to Thanksgiving and now plan to keep sitting out until the day after Christmas clearance. So busy with the kids, relatives I missed a couple of price adjustments on RA – doh! I hope this is a good week for everyone on Ebay and that I can get back to listing on a clean machine this week. The phone is so small to list, I need the keyboard.

Regarding the jacket, I almost didn’t comment. But, I decided to say that I hope you don’t let the discussion get you down. It’s easy to just write whatever on the internet. At the end of the day, we’re all learning and growing.

[Jay]

If we had kids, they’d never touch my computer! Lock that with a password! I’m always impressed how well your RA does.

We’ve enjoyed everyone’s comments. We’re not internet amateurs so know it’s all about seeing what a community can discuss honestly before it tears itself part. I think we’re doing okay.

Now the Youtube community…that’s a predictable disaster.

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

Hey Jay.. I just thought of something about all these back and forth posts today. I remember way back years ago when the episodes were in the teens or low double digits and you said at the end of one of the pod casts. “Come guys, we haven’t had hardly any posts, will some of you reply and post”. Those days were maybe a dozen or two total posts for the whole episode. Well watch out for what you ask for, you may just get it. LOL… Now you have “tons” of posts every week.

I remember when you and Ryanne answered every post, sometimes within minutes. Now by the time you or Ryanne get to reply a whole slew up posts get posted. That is just so cool.

I also think you have said a couple of times, that it would be neat when the Forum could run itself with minimum moderation. I even noticed during this new house project that your frequency did diminish since you guys were so tied up.
It was even a few weeks ago you were asking for more detailed and in depth questions and topics. Looks like you opened up a good one. Remember the long “what constitutes COGS – COG Cost of Goods and Cost of Goods Sold long, long thread?

Now that T-Satt is around that may be another good one to revist since Dec. and as T-Satt said “year end” is just a few weeks away.

But funny, you used to asked for more posts, now it is request to organize our posts, put in right catagory, and pull in the reins a little. LOL.

mike at MDC Galleries in Atlanta

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

Yeah as Jay says.. and we all are fairly thick skinned and Jay does a good job of letting things roll off his back and also he can give as good as he gets sometimes. But as he says, we are all open and it is about seeing things from a miriad of different perspectives and we have only had a few that were really mean and trying to create havoc and bad vibes. Those were a lot of the anonymous people back on the old blog but on the new forum and with Ryanne screening and everyone having to sign up, it is just most of those like us trying so thourh things out there on the table to talk it out and learn. I think Jay calls it, running this up the flag pole and seeing what happens.

In a since we are all in this “together”. many have spent many hours posting things here to just help. And if “coming from left field” occasionally, it is all OK. Remember as Susan just said “I am a piece of work”.

So Jay won’t get down. Actually we may be wanting to rent Jay house and come up and maybe help him with an inventory system if they have a need or desire.

mc at mdcg

[Sharyn]

Jay – You need to bookmark this and take him up on the offer!

I’m staying out of this discussion, but I’m finding it very interesting.

[ThriftShift]

Nov 20-26
Items in store: 788
Sales: $467.49
Items sold: 19
COGS: $44

I am a contracts attorney and what occurred is legal. I often hear “but it’s not fair…moral ethical..blah blah” from both buyers and sellers. I tell them the fair part is what they agreed to in the contract – that is the “fair umbrella” they choose to stand under. Whether this “contract umbrella” has holes that allows rain to fall on one or the other is dependent on the facts of a certain situation. It could go in favor of one or the other.

Issue: May a seller cancel a sale on eBay for any reason?

Rules: Ebay User Guide which all sellers and buyers “sign” allows for cancellations. It does not require buyer agreement to unilaterally cancel a transaction.
“Errors” is an intentionally vague term that can go in favor of buyer or seller. To operate on this platform requires an assumption of risk that the buyer may never pay; the seller may cancel. Further, parties agree to the “remedies” – feedback and refunds.

Analysis: Regardless of how one views an error as right or wrong, it is allowed by the terms of the contract – the User Policy; although the policy gives examples of an error, there is no prohibition on cancelling due to pricing in error. A remedy is available to the buyer – negative feedback and full refund to make him “whole again”, which is the standard remedy. Ryanne and Jay offered the remedy, which was accepted albeit with some drama on buyers end.

Conclusion: The cancellation was legally allowed. As regarding ethics, the morality of any Marketplace should be set by a code of conduct. Ebay has Policies and User Guides with vague language. Until Ebay decides what is a “moral” error and sets this forth in its Policies, it is permissible to cancel a sale, as long the seller also provides the required remedies.

My two cents. I would not consider this in the realm of Unfair or Deceptive Trade Practices as the buyer agreed to the rules and has been provided a remedy.

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

Oh ThriftShift, where were you 3 hours ago! Would have saved me from a lot of typing. 🙂 LOL. Well that takes care of that. Didn’t think about the Buyer’s and Seller’s agreement, which yep, as you said we all agreed to when we set up our accounts, but no one except a legal eagle reads much less understands most of the time.

Thanks for the detailed post and clears the air on the “legal” issue of a cancellation.

Didn’t know we had a “legal eagle” floating around. Now that we know, you may get shout outs every now and then or we say, good question to ask ThriftShift!! LOL.

mc at mdcg

[T-Satt]

I second that. ThriftShift is now the Official Legal Advisor for Trash Elves! Love that!

[AdventureE]

This area is covered under Using Ebay.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html#3

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

AdventureE-ThriftShift and T-Satt: Oh boy don’t you just love it. I pulled that link into MS Word and our User Agreement is 7,426 words, 45,674 characters, 198 paragraphs, 770 lines and 20 pages long.

At a quick glance, saw areas to arbitrate, Pursuant Statue Code quotes, the use of the words “will” and “may” which greatly vary an agreement, indemnity, Disputes, disclaimers, Holds, Intelectual Property, Listing and Purchasing Criteria, LIONS, TIGERS AND BEARS OH MY!!! and tons more. Got to love a well worded Agreement and would you probably think, worded in Ebay favor?? Duh! 🙂 But, really who has read all of it and who can decipher it.

WELL .. Yep.. ThriftShift this is your kind of swamp. Deep, murky and clogged with weeds. Hummm wonder what your service fee is, if we ever get shut down for some sort of wierd VERO or such, let’s go get ’em. 🙂 Just kiddin ya’ll. Just a joke….

As Father Mulcayhe [sp ??] on Mash used to say… Jockularity..Jockularity!! 🙂

mc at mdcg

[Incompetent Picker]

ThriftShift, I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a minute. I had a similar situation that I wrote about above. In my case I claimed “pricing error” and I believe J&R mentioned this as well in their case. But here’s the rub in both cases…. there was no pricing error. In my case, my partner and I are professionals, we do this for a substantial part of our living. Therefore when we research an item, price it and put it up for sale to the general public it becomes “fair” game. There were no typos or misclicks. The price is exactly what we intended to ask for the item at the time.

Ryanne mentioned a week or two back that she could find no comparables and went with her gut on price. I would also consider J&R professionals with extensive experience in vintage clothing and therefore it would be hard to truthfully argue “pricing error”.

The buyer of my item was threatening legal action based on “grievous financial harm” or some such mumbo jumbo. I briefly consulted with a lawyer friend and he laughed about the eBay guideline/policy agreement. He felt certain eBay would quickly wash their hands of any involvement and leave it up to the two parties involved to settle things. He advised me to tread carefully because in his opinion I was clearly in the wrong. Anyway, things worked themselves out and realistically nobody is going to invest time and money into a relatively smallish matter like this.

These situations are on shaky ground when it comes to ethics and I think we all know what the right thing to do is. But I’m no saint as I stated above. I just learned a valuable lesson and vowed to do everything I could to never be in that position again.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Incompetent Picker.

[T-Satt]

I would defer to ThriftShift, but I would think a legal battle would end up in favor of the seller based on FOB Destination if it just stays with lawyers and judges.

If it goes to a jury though, who knows. During a lawsuit, I would think all eBay messages and emails would have to be turned over during discovery, and it would end up being who the jury sided with.

But what do I know…I’m a numbers guy. Law is made up of those icky words…

[Jay]

What happens when the buyer purchases and pays for an item. Then messages “Please cancel because I found the item cheaper elsewhere”. Obviously it sucks, but we cancel and move on. Is this a broken contract?

[T-Satt]

Like we had last night…I hate that…

I wish so, but no, it is FOB Destination, so it is legally yours until you deliver. The deal isn’t really done until delivery.

I like to live in the world of the deal is done when we agree (time of purchase). Which is why when I buy something, I follow through. And why we all wish more buyers thought the same way, since it is frustrating and time consuming to cancel the sale and relist.

I grew up in a handshake world…but the world isn’t always like that.

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

Amen!

[Jay]

So it sounds like we’re agreeing that a seller can cancel an item until it’s delivered.

[AdventureE]

Actually no.

Canceling for price goes against ebay policy.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html#3

Using eBay

In connection with using or accessing the Services you will not:

post, list or upload content or items in inappropriate categories or areas on our sites;
breach or circumvent any laws, third-party rights or our systems, policies, or determinations of your account status;

use our Services if you are not able to form legally binding contracts (for example, if you are under 18 years old), or are temporarily or indefinitely suspended from using our sites, services, applications or tools; 

fail to pay for items purchased by you, unless you have a valid reason as set out in an eBay policy, for example, the seller has materially changed the item’s description after you bid, a clear typographical error is made, or you cannot contact the seller (see our Unpaid item policy);
fail to deliver items sold by you, unless you have a valid reason as set out in an eBay policy, for example, the buyer fails to comply with the posted terms in your listing or you cannot contact the buyer;

manipulate the price of any item or interfere with any other user’s listings

Yes, buyers are entering into a contract.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html#7

Purchase Conditions

When buying an item, you agree to the rules for buyers and that:

You are responsible for reading the full item listing before making a bid or commitment to buy.

You enter into a legally binding contract to purchase an item when you commit to buy an item, your offer for an item is accepted, or if you have the winning bid (or your bid is otherwise accepted).

[T-Satt]

Yeah, well, what is the policy? And what is the enforcement and penalty?

It also says the following:

Policy Enforcement
When a buyer or seller issue arises, we may consider the user’s performance history and the specific circumstances in applying our policies. We may choose to be more lenient with policy enforcement in an effort to do the right thing for both buyers and sellers.

Talk about allowing wiggle room…

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

That is the difference between “we will” or “we may”. Big difference and does leave plenty of wiggle room.

We will suspend you or we may suspend you. I like the may better.

We still have a divide as to when the sale has consummated. At delivery of funds as the Wiki article says or at the delivery of the article to destination. That needs to be defined first.

As to T-Satt stating FOB destination. We sell the item when funds are psoted. The delivery is on us because we have been hired or sub-cintracted to deliver the buyer’s item to him because he has paid us to do so. They pay for shipping. They give us money to provide that service, so of course we are obligated to carry that service out and if fails we are on the hook, but that doesn’t change the fact, the object was the buyers at moment of payment.

The $880 printer I sold at the first of the month. Then the buyer arranged for deilvery. I kept that object, HIS object in my garage for 3 weeks before it was picked up. I was responsible for the safety of his object until he picked it up. That object was not mine because he paid for the printer the day I accepted his offer. If after 3 weeks I had done something else with that printer or e-mailed him that I decided to keep it and then refunded him, I would be the person to have broken the deal, contract or whatever we are going to call. It.

I don’t see how I could claim that printer to still be mine after I accepted the $880 bucks into my paypal account. FOB Point of Sale in my book. If my neighbor then came over and saw it and said he would give me $1,500 for it, based on how I understand what I had agreed to with my first buyer, I guess I would have to say sorry it is already sold. And if my buyer had emailed me to cancel after I deposited his funds, he would have broken the deal and would be trying to get me to take “HIS” object back and refunding him the money.

I guess as I said, we need to have a real legal, definitive answer to when is the object’s title of ownership transferred to the buy and then from that decide as to when a seller no longer has a right to do anything with it.

All of this is just a very, very gray area.

mc at mdcg

[T-Satt]

And why lawyers have so much work and make so much money…

And what the legal ability to do vs. the business thing to do…that can be the gray area. And many will go one way, and many will go the other.

Like you, I work on the position that once paid for, it is the buyer’s, but I have the obligation to get it to them. Do I take on more risk by doing so? Yep. Will I get burned sometimes? Yep. Is it the right way to run my business? In my mind, Yep. Others will go the other way, and that is how they run their business.

It is LEGAL to do lots of things…but not always what I think is right for MY business. So we live in the gray…

[T-Satt]

Yep. We agree that you can do that. I would think that legally and in accordance with policy, you can do that.

But your question was…what WOULD you do. Different question…thereby the long discussion with lots of people on both sides.

Like many things in life…shades of gray…

[ChristineK]

I would have absolutely cancelled the sale, but I would have put it up for Buy It Now for an absurd price like $5000 instead of using an auction. Like you said, someone had a proxy bid and would have paid up for it had someone else put in a competing bid. I think an absurdly-priced BIN without “make an offer” would trigger either an absurdly high full-price sale or else a slew of unsolicited offer emails.

As for the ethics, someone was going to sell this jacket for over $1000. It might as well have been you. I don’t see an issue with cancelling as the pricing truly was an error.

[Jay]

Yeah, maybe we should have done what you and others have suggested. Posted for very high. We’ve learned multiple lessons from this sale. But that’s the journey of this scavenger life.

[ThriftShift]

The forum will be state court if arbitration cannot be resolved. The ebay policy and user agreement can say “you create a legally binding contract”, but state laws determine what is a contract. There has to actually be a forum to have a dispute – there is no “EBAY COURT”. So there will have a plaintiff and defendant in state court. The plaintiff can present the ebay user policy and the judge will see what terms the parties agreed to; however since so much is undefined, it will be a hard fight. That being said, even if someone “wins” the case against the seller, they cannot generally force a sale and delivery of an item. The buyer gets “made whole again” – a refund (and maybe legal fees). The seller cannot force a payment either but can be made whole again too – such as costs of re-listing the item. No more legal advice from me – this is a cerebral exercise that has no real application. No one will normally go to state court over an ebay transaction; a settlement would occur before that likely to kill the issue for everyone. OUT for me on this topic. And no more legal advice – the thought makes me sick to my stomach. I am quitting the law in six months to sell full-time so I don’t have to talk to people everyday and listen to their problems. Take care everyone.

[LAwoman]

I would have sent it at $50. No judgement, love you guys, but I’m very suprised. Just sayin’…

I bid on a Dries Van Noten men’s coat… worth a few hundred, like many, many hundreds. The seller got the spelling of the designer’s name wrong, so I nabbed it for under $100. They cancelled, no explanation. I was furious – but nice, and persistent, in my eventual responses (pricing error). I can’t tell you how many times I under-priced things and sent it anyway, and I mentioned this in my Emails. The seller wrote back: ‘well, sometimes life gets in the way of good business, and sometimes not.’

There are many unicorns out there. Virginia, Beverly Hills, Idaho, even Hoboken. You just have to recognize them (you know this already, I’m sure). But to screw someone because you were salivating for a few extra hundred? Oy. Scary. It’s a little scary.

[So Cal Joe]

“But to screw someone because you were salivating for a few extra hundred? Oy. Scary. It’s a little scary.” LAwoman

I have to agree. What’s even more scary is the myriad of justifications, both legal and otherwise, that cancelling the first sale was ok.

Aren’t we at that point lowering ourselves to the level of the unscrupulous buyers?

It’s just a thought…

[ThriftShift]

I must say now though – I have a business idea called “Ebay Court”. I’ll do televised arbitration “Judge Judy” style (which is what she really is – an arbiter). Guest judges will be allowed. We’ll get all kinds of crazypants on “Ebay Court TV”. “Crayzpants” is my own legal jargon term. The “Case of the Swapped Dolphin Sculpture” will be a good starter.

[T-Satt]

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

That’s a hoot!

Oh and don’t turn your brain off. Seems like you have great detailed info. Promise I won’t go to the well too often 🙂

[Incompetent Picker]

Judge Judy – “You’re an idiot!! And a scammer!!!”

[Utahbill]

Judge me if you want, but I would have done what Jay and Ryanne did. I’m not going to explain or rationalize my position, just telling it like it is.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Utahbill.

[Rydell Relics]

RR Store Week Nov 19-25, 2017

Total Items in Store: 1,378
Items Sold: 21
Cost of Items Sold: $22.39
Total Sales: $332.71
Highest Price Sold: $42.29 (UK Jimi Hendrix album cover; no vinyl)
Average Price Sold: $15.84
Returns: 0
Money Spent on New Inventory This Week: $48.78
Number of items listed this week: 13

Fascinating question this week. Truth be told, I would have done the same thing. If there was over $1000 bucks just sitting on my porch, it would eat me up. I look at it like this: I (and Jay & Ryanne) operate my business with a high level of integrity and customer service, whether it’s a $5 dollar or $500 dollar item. As a result, my defect rating is very low. If I have to take a ding to turn $50 into $1000, then so be it. I can live with that. It’s not like this situation arises on a regular basis. One slight bending of the rules does not a “shady” seller make.

Jay, I’m also surprised at some of the reactions. There must be some pretty sore fingers out there from all that wagging. And I’m literally laughing out loud at some of your responses. You’re really stirring the Instant Pot!

Took some time off from listing to be with family and friends leading up to and including the holiday. No good deed goes unpunished, it seems. Awful week! But this week I’ve already surpassed last week’s total, and after hitting some great estate sales over the weekend, I’ve been listing plenty. Off to list more.

*Paul*

[Steve List]

I agree with Jay and Ryanne. We play by eBay’s rules, and as pointed out above, they allow for cancellations, even after payment. I’m not sure where I would place the line between underpricing by $10 or $1000 and letting it go or canceling for more money. Under $100 I’m pretty sure I would let it go and make sure I didn’t make the same mistake again. But when it is a few hundred, I’m
pretty sure I would cancel and re-list.

On a different subject and pod cast, just curious when the next Shampoo & Booze will be out, I think it has been a couple of months. What made me think about it is this link on military.com about an unusual Air B&B: Military.com

[BethGreen]

I was reading thorough the comments above. And it got me thinking about my own experiences as a buyer on this crazy thing called the internet. When you are buying from regular people…on eBay, Facebook, one of the myriad of selling apps out there…it is a different set of rules. I don’t consider it a done deal until I have the item in my hands. I source often on local Facebook groups. It is pretty normal to have people back out, change their minds, whatever. It’s happened to me plenty of times that a deal falls through after it was made but before it was in my possession: “I just looked this up and they’re going for $$ so I want 20x what we agreed on, my husband doesn’t want to sell it for that price, my kid saw me getting rid of it and wants to keep it after all. I have heard every single one of these. And as a buyer it’s frustrating…but not really THAT frustrating because I know it can happen in these venues. Your buyer has a right to be peeved, but he’ll get over it. Probably faster than you’d think because he never actually had the jacket.
Totally to justify and just to make yourselves feel better, you could look at it this way. If you bought a brand new car and were waiting on delivery of it (custom order paint), and it comes off the docks and is on the way to the dealership where you are going to pick it up, and the dealer-owned hauler gets in a wreck setting your new car into flames, who’s car is it? Does it go on YOUR insurance claim when you never even touched it yet? Or does the dealership assume ownership until safe delivery is made to the customer? Just another way to look at it.

[Ryanne]

we’ve had other sellers do this to us too. even when you’re at the cash register, they look at an item, know they mis-priced it and say they can’t sell it. totally sucks, but you’re on both sides of the coin here, you’re like ‘you’re right! it is underpriced’ and thats why you’re trying to resell it at a bigger price.

[dearmila]

Nov 19 – Nov 25, 2017
Total Items in Store: 379
Items Sold: 16
Cost of Items Sold: approx. $16
Total Sales: $205.63
Highest Price Sold: $30 (Lululemon pants)
Average Price Sold: $12.85
Returns: 0
International Sales: 1
Money Spent on New Inventory This Week: $47.76
Number of items listed this week: 36

Oof, it was a slow week w/ a couple of $0 days, yikes. I wasn’t too focused on it though since my main goal was to get my active listings up, w/ a goal to be at 500 by the end of December. I was so close to 400 yesterday, so I pushed through and got to that goal — even resorting to looking for items that had dropped off mistakenly, I found 2! I know there are probably a bit more. But enough is enough w/ the low sales, so back to giving that a bit more attention by running a sale and some auctions. And for the next couple days, will be cutting back from too many hours on eBay and giving home some attention, it’s a wreck. Have a good week everyone.

[skydog]

Since you asked, I would have honored the sale. And I am surprised that you didn’t.

[Ryanne]

i’m surprised that you (and others) are surprised. we had the chance to make 10-20x the price i sold it for. the original buyer even offered me 10x the price on the spot. in 10 years this is the only time we’ve ever canceled a sale. i was even 100% honest and communicated directly with my buyer, offered him a discount on anything in my store when i canceled.

the opportunity to be able to pay most of my bills for the month on one sale was not something i was going to pass up. if others would do that and honor the original sale, that’s fine. but honestly the attitudes and comments of some community members on this forum saying we were salivating over a couple hundred dollars is a bit disrespectful in my opinion. you really think that’s how we think of it? you’re on a forum of a podcast that we produce every week, you’re part of a community we built and continue week in and out to maintain, if you thought of us that way, then you must not listen or read anything on here for the last 4 years.

[Steven S]

My mind goes to which side of the coin I’m on….I would hate it if I was the buyer but would’ve canceled as the seller.
I think taking the buyers counter offer of $600 would’ve eased my mind about the whole thing.
I make no judgements, you have to actually be in the moment of the situation to know what feels right for you.

[T-Satt]

So we are clear on our position, we still love you guys and love what you have built here. The forum you have and the podcast you created helped me make my decision to leave my job and do this full time, mostly because you guys were so open with what you do and you shared your numbers. That will always be huge to me, and I will always be thankful to you guys for what you have done for so many of us with the work you put into this podcast and forum.

We look at this as a business decision, nothing more. We would have decided to go the other way. That doesn’t make us right or wrong, just how we would have handled it. As you can see in the conversation about when title passes, when is the deal done, etc., there is a lot of gray from the time the negotiations start to when the delivery is made. It is a gray area for sure.

But from us in our house, we still love you guys very much. No worries at all.

[almasty]

Ya’ll did nothing wrong. I don’t understand how people could let 1k slip by without thinking twice.

Especially in this case, since the buyer was either a reseller or collector who knew they were getting a great deal. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t have immediately offered 500. They knew even *that* amount was a good deal.

Just ignore the virtue signallers. You guys did nothing wrong and did exactly what you should have.

[So Cal Joe]

The salivating comment was copied from another post. It was not exactly accurate or very kind. I apologize if you were offended.

In fairness, you had no idea what the jacket was worth when you cancelled the first sale. It was surely worth more than $60, but at the time, it was an unknown quantity which could have been worth $1000 or a whole lot more. I understand your dilemma. It wasn’t about $1000. It was about who knows how much.

For what it’s worth, I’ve listened to most of the podcasts and been on the website for a long time. It would be disingenuous of me to pretend I haven’t learned a bunch and also profited as a result. I appreciate everything you and Jay do to bring us that information. Thank You.

To many of the newer and younger sellers you two have become role models. People follow your lead… Congratulations (LOL).

It’s all good here.. have a nice holiday.

[Steven S]

Nov 19-25 2017

• Total Items in Store: 854
• Items Sold: 17 all ebay
• International 2 GSP
• Total Sales $791
• Highest Price $130 Mustang II Air cleaner
• Average Price Sold: $47
• Returns: 0
• Cost of Items Sold: $167
• Cost of items purchased this week $0

Slow holiday week and not a lot of listing got done.
I’ve had numerous smaller dollar items sell this week so far.

Oops, didn’t mean for this to land here.

[Craig]

I wish places like GOODWILL would stop playing pricing roulette at the cash register when an item has not had its price altered or switched.

[Retro Treasures WV]

My wife and I had a great conversation about this story last night over a dinner date. I would have honored the sale and dropped the buyer a line congratulating him. No Question, I know I would have. Going with my gut, I think $5k would have been my minimum price to considering cancelling. $1k doesn’t move my business ethics meter.
My rationale is that I don’t want to cross that line and put a price on my integrity. Karma has treated me well in the many deals that have come my way, and many more are still to come. A thousand bucks is a minimal thing in the grand scheme of things.

My wife would have made me cancel the sale and relist.

My wife’s rationale is… THAT’S a THOUSAND DOLLARS! We need that money! We have 4 kids! You want to quit your job! That would help!

So yeah, my wife wins that argument over my sentimental reasoning. The buyer will get over it.

In regards to the negative feedback here, I think the thing that is irking people here are two things:
-You lied to the buyer and said it was a mistake – it wasn’t.
-You feedback extorted the buyer so he would have a fair chance at winning the item he already bought. (Pretty clever really)

I’m not judging you – those two lines are facts.

Knowing this story was coming I expected the story to be that for some reason the buyer didn’t pay and you caught a break. I too was surprised you cancelled it.

So having said all that, take your lumps, let it roll off and move on. You are satisfied with the outcome and that’s all that matters. It was a great story and I’m thankful you shared.

For some of y’all that are taking this way too seriously, you need to get off your high horses and realize that J&R aren’t some all-powerful faultless ebay “God’s” who dictate your direction in business. They’re just people and are subject to the same ethical dilemas we all face. Cast those stones folks, I’m sure if you were laying bare your business in transparent honesty on the internet like J&R do then there’d be plenty o’ stones flying your way.

My main problem is with all the douche bags who wrote J&R to rub it in their faces they undersold the item. Why do people do that? Does their life have so little substantial value to them that they just have to go around peeing in other folks cheerios to feel some form of self worth?

[Jay]

This comment is why I love the internet and the little communities that can thrive when perfect strangers share with each other.

I don’t necessarily agree with all of Retro Treasures RV’s opinion, but it’s a well constructed argument and honest. It’s touches on all the different angles and acknowledges the various perspectives/conflicts. Plus no outrage (which is a community killer). Respect to you.

[Retro Treasures WV]

Total Items in Store: 903
Items Sold: 12
Cost of Items Sold: $33
Total Sales: $282
Profit: $249
Highest Price Sold: $40 Silver Jeans
Average Price Sold: $23.50
Average Profit: $20.74

I have an unpaid item that I didn’t include – $100 pair of shoes. Ugh…
Pretty bad week – no sales Friday-Sunday on ebay! That was weird. All the sudden on Monday I have a bunch of sales. Apparently folks only shop while at work. Lol.

I took off two days this week to give me a really long weekend. I wasn’t allowed to take off last week because so many other folks were. I took off the time to really focus on the garage conversion to my ebay room and completion of the den (former poorly converted ebay room) to a gameroom.

I insulated the garage ceiling, got a 5000W heater, and cleaned out a bunch of junk. I was able to get all of my games moved into the now totally awesome game room. I’ll snap some photos to post next week once it’s clean – still misc crap lying everywhere as I finish the garage.

Due to all the work going on, no listing happening. This needed to happen, so I’m fine with no listing happening.

Have a great week!

[Jay]

How did you end up insulating the ceiling? With R-15 rolls?

[Retro Treasures WV]

I used the 24″ wide insulation precut panels. They didn’t have 24″ width in rolls. It worked out well though because the length was exactly 3 panels for each space. All of the house wiring is ran across the trusses, so it was a real pain in some cases to work the insulation under the wiring.

I decided not to insulate the walls. The foam board under the siding will have to do.

The 240V 5000W garage ceiling mount heater I got will be more than sufficient to keep it toasty in there. The garage is 420 sq ft. A new store near us called Rural King had a great black Friday deal on the heater – was only $58! Normally $150.

[Anonymous]

I should have piped up sooner, given you’ve probably got your shelving all up and stocked, but you could always insulate on top of the the existing drywall, if you don’t mind losing the space, though you’re probably thought that through.

Mostly, I wanted to say I love Rural King! Much better than Tractor Supply, which is all we have around here. Free popcorn, what’s not to like? I was in one in Illinois last Aug. and they had burlap coffee bags from South America for $2 each, which I considered trying to flip on eBay.

My scavenger tip for folks with indoor cats: oak woodstove pellets make great cat litter. They smell great, they’re environmentally friendly, unlike clay, they don’t get tracked out of the box like clay, and they go for around $5 for a 40 lb bag at farm stores like Rural King and the more rural home improvement stores, too. We’ve got 2 cats, we use 2 quarts at a time in their litter box, dump the whole box once a day and 40 lbs lasts us about 3 weeks.

Off topic, I admit (dogpiling?), but at least I got y’all’s minds off the jacket for a minute.

[Doublythumbs]

I’ve got a Rural King near me too and yes, the popcorn is a great incentive to stop in. We buy our 40 lb bag of pine chips for our pet hedgehog there. So much cheaper than the small bags you get at the pet store. And weirdly enough, ours has a ridiculous soda selection. Like individual glass bottles of pop I’ve never even seen before.

[Anonymous]

Hedgehog? I didn’t know you could even get those in the states.

Yeah, the “Equine Pine” also works for cat litter, but tends to crumble more and can get tracked a bit.

[Retro Treasures WV]

In regards to wall insulation, I was going to blow in insulation. It just requires holes to be cut in the wall which is no problem. After thinking it over though, my money was better spent on a vapor barrier and insulation in the attic. I don’t think I’ll get much bang for my buck on the walls. I can always revisit wall insulation if I need to.

[Anonymous]

You sound like an HVAC eng. Definately a function of delta-T, but savings do accrue. I wish we’d insulated the floors in this old shack when we bought it 20 years ago–and we’re in the sunny south. But so propane doesn’t come up cheaper than electric up there?

[whiskey]

I have been thinking about this for a couple of days. There are so many facets. Living in a glass house is tough. I have had my integrity questioned and I have questioned integrity and it never leaves you feeling good about what happened. Hopefully people appreciate the honesty and the sense of self it takes to put a tough decision out there but, but more importantly, in my opinion, the sense of self it takes to weather the judgment of the decision.

My initial reaction was that I would not back out. I priced it. I didn’t fat finger the number. It was a price I picked and now I must honor it just as I would expect it to be honored. But that is because I think of it in terms of me as a person, not a business.

But this is a business. J & R are CEO’s of their business. They answer to themselves, the shareholders.

Let’s assume we are all shareholders in XYZ Corp. The CEO structures a deal to sell a division for in a structured deal for $1 Million. Once the deal is inked, internal information surfaces that suggests that the division will be worth $10 million to the new company. Given this change, wouldn’t you demand that the CEO find any way to undue the deal? In fact, I think every one of us would call for their heads if they did not try to find the provision that undid it. It’s business. The CEO owes maximizing the bottom line to it’s shareholders. Is it any different that the CEO’s and shareholders are one and the same?

When I remove the personal aspect of it, my analysis changes and my “gut reaction” to how I would handle it seems to go away. It’s business. In that light, they had to make a business decision. What was the cost of undoing the deal? The only two costs I see are negative feedback and the theoretical danger of a lawsuit. They managed the negative feedback portion and removed it as a cost. As for litigation, that would never happen for the reasons previously stated and the practical aspects. As a career litigator, I can tell you that you couldn’t afford me to recover what, a grand in damages? And the buyer would have to sue in J & R’s state unless they could prove substantial ties to their own state, so buyer is having to fund the small claims action in another state including travel. That won’t happen. So what is the downside to canceling the sale other than putting it out there for public fodder? I think they acted as CEO’s should.

[omfug]

On the jacket issue, I don’t look at it as a moral issue, but isn’t it a legal issue in some way? isn’t there an implied contract to making a sale on ebay? I am also curious why didn’t you take the buyer’s $600 offer–wasn’t that a decent compromise?

[Gompers]

I see there’s a lot of comments on the denim jacket. I haven’t read all of them, but if I was the buyer at $60 that had my purchase cancelled I wouldn’t have had an issue with it. Since Jay and Ryanne were honest about the situation. Honesty carries a lot of weight.

I have seen sellers cancel sales due to “out of stock” “broken item” “lost item” etc only to later relist the same item at a higher price. In that situation as the buyer I would leave negative feedback.

BTW, all the people who contacted you for selling that jacket at too low a price were just upset that they didn’t buy it first. If they had purchased it they wouldn’t have said a peep.

On another note I just bought some wool socks at costco 4 pair for $8. Not sure of the % of wool, but they certainly are warm and comfortable.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by Gompers.

[Inglewood]

I vote this as the thread of 2017 – enjoy reading everyone’s thoughts and opinions on the jacket!

[ChristineR]

For some reason, this thread reminded me of a great old tv show (from the 1980s) called Ethics in America. For those you enjoyed this debate, you might enjoy listening while you list. It’s free here Ethics in America Episodes Video Link

[Marie in Florida]

Items In Store: 325
Items Sold: 1
Cost of Items Sold: $7.50(around)
Total Sales: $55

HIghest Price Sold: $55 (Allen Edmond Shoes) Also lowest price!!!

Poor week from post-vacation fallout. Does anyone else have this? I was gone for 16 days and I put my store on a long handling time, gradually reducing the handling time. Did pretty well, selling 10 items while I was gone.
Once I got back I started listing within 24 hours to get some fresh items. And the store collapses-literally one sale. The weird thing is this is a pattern the last 3 times I travelled. Sell well while gone. When home immediately list, list every day, trim a few prices, run a sale and the store stalls. Any ideas why?

Returns: 1
Money Spent on New Inventory This Week: $ 0

[T-Satt]

The only thing I could attribute it to is momentum delay, both in new listings and in sales. It seems to me that we do best when we have consistent new listings and consistent sales. If listings stall, sales seem to stall, and if sales stall, sales seem to stall more (if that makes sense).

There does seem to be a bit of a lag, a few days to a week. I use SixBit now so that I can spread out my new listings to hit every few hours so that new listings hit every day for my items.

When we went to Panama for a month last year (before we had SixBit), the first week after we left and had no new listings, sales started to slow. By the time we returned, sales were VERY slow, though we used that time to refresh old listings and send them as new, but still a drop-off. When we started listing again, sales came back.

Same with my hunting trip this year. I went about 2 weeks with no listings, and clothes started to fall off. Now that I am back to having at least 10 clothing items per day, we are getting consistent clothing sales (6-10 per day).

I also see trends in brands/types of sales. When one Brooks Brothers shirt sells, lots of times a second one will, or a Brooks sweater, or Brooks suit. This past few days, pants have started to move. One sells, then another, then another.

It is probably easier to see the curve on our store since we are at 1700 items. For you at 300, your swings will be bigger day-by-day, since each sale is a larger percentage of your total inventory.

Do you sell lots of different items, or stay in a niche (all clothing or all collectibles)?

[Anonymous]

My first ever auction win on Everything But The House (bleh), was a vintage cookie jar of no great value, but the family that owned the estate reneged on the whole auction and locked the auction company out. EBTH sent a message saying basicallly, “we’re having our lawyers look into it, but stuff happens.” Never heard another word about it, so it seems, at least in the world of EBTH, the seller is king.

But on the topic of liability, I don’t see how any buyer could claim to be owed more than the value of the winning bid or accepted offer, which, in R&J’s case, was refunded to the buyer. But then, I’m no lawyer.

[T-Satt]

What are the prices like on EBTH? I wonder if they double up on eBay/Etsy…

I have heard them advertising on the radio around here. Makes me a little worried about them being a sourcing competitor if they grow more…

[Anonymous]

I only bid on a handful of EBTH auctions and maybe watched a couple of dozen before losing interest, but in my experience, items were being bid up to eBay price levels, suggesting that their advertising is attracting consumers as much as resellers. Some stuff no doubt has some room for profit, but maybe 2x multiples at best. I’m sure some more obscure stuff fails to get attention from time to time, but I didn’t find it worth the time as a sourcing platform. I don’t think they cross-list, because their auctions operate in real time, so that the auction end is extended until there are no bids within the last 5 seconds or something. I’m sure there’s a name for that type of auction, but je ne sais quoi.

That said, EBTH is still another place to learn the kinds of things that attract interest and high bids.

[Brian Treasures from Grandmas]

I have some alerts set up on EBTH and have made a handful of purchases. I will say that rarely is anything a “bargain”, but they often times have pretty high quality items or items that come with provenance/history. I’m rarely making 10x my money, but I can sometimes find a little room left for profit, maybe 2x-3x money.

[Jay]

Ive bought a couple big lots of stuff, but not huge profit. Either shipping costs are too high, or ts a pain to go get the items. There’s too much easier stuff to find.

[T-Satt]

Thanks. I will have to check that out and see if I can get some deals.

[BethGreen]

I just want to add one more thought to the jacket bit. The idea that there is a legal infringement is ridiculous. I have on at least 2 occasions purchased something from Walmart online, at rock bottom prices. I completed checkout…paid for the items. They ran out of stock on the “special price” quantity of items. My orders have been cancelled…not backordered…cancelled. With a stock form letter apology. Actually I just pulled one up from my email.
Exact quote: “Thank you for shopping with Walmart.com. Unfortunately, we’ve had to cancel the items listed below because they were not available in your selected store when we were preparing your order for pickup. We’re sorry for any inconvenience this may cause you.”
So you see, they did not merely backorder my item and fulfill it at the price I purchased it at. They cancelled & refunded it without my consent. If I want the item, I would have to repurchase it when available, and at whatever that future price is listed at. The jacket situation is not much different in my opinion. The reasons may be slightly different, but the means to the customer is the same. I’m not getting the item I wanted at the price I wanted. Welcome to online shopping!

[Bryan 2.0]

It’s been a while since I’ve posted, but wanted to pop in to say hello!

I would have cancelled that sale in a heart beat. Obviously buyers don’t have to honor the terms of the contract and pay for items, so sellers are not really bound either. It’s not cool to cancel a sale because you priced a $100 item for $50. But a $1000 item for $50? I’m on your side.

Hope everybody is having an awesome holiday selling season!

Bryan

[MDC Galleries & Fine Art]

Well.. Guess there is some truth in “Fate”. I get my just rewards for jumping in on the subject “ship it or cancel it” discussion. And OK I know a big laugh is coming at me.

But first for the record, yes, I know the difference between $65 and $1,600 dollars but guess what just happened to me all within less than about an hour? We got a cha-ching and my wife Susan turned to me and said what did you sell that Dooney and Bourke cross body purse for $.99 for and with FREE SHIPPING no less. I said what??? Yep.. I accidently used an old auction $.99 & free shipping template in WonderLister, filled in all the data, attached photos, did my description and all the item specifics. Except didn’t see it was an old auction template and that it had a $.99 pre-filled in field and I listed that purse for the $.99 instead of $69.99 !!!! Du-oohhh!!

So I guess I get my just rewards. LOL-LOL-LOL. But as some stated way up this thread, an extra thousand is a different story.

I won’t even mention this to the buyer and will ship it tomorrow morning for free. My loss for not paying attention for the last few days while I was reading and posting so much of the SL posts on this thread and all the replies.

Fate just jumped up and said, “Got ‘cha”. You can check my solds and see it right there at the top. Oh and by the way, I uploaded it and went to get take out pizza around the corner. By the time I got back, may 20 minutes it was sold. Talk about a buyer catching a quick mistake. I know people troll Ebay for just this sort of thing, as we all know.

So out it goes and boy did the buyer get a nice Christmas gift.

With a smile on my face or should I say “egg” and no stress in my heart, I remain a loyal Jay and Ryanne fan and very respectful of what they have done through the years and for all the advice I have gotten.

I guess I need to hit the tip jar also as part of my penance while my wife is going back through our listings over the last few days to make sure I didn’t do this on a few earlier listings over the past few days.

Mike at MDC Galleries in Atlanta

[omfug]

I still want to know what J&R’s thinking was on not taking that $600–they had NO idea what the jacket would ultimately earn.

[Jay]

If this dealer was willing to give us $600 on the spot, we knew it was worth much more.

[Ryanne]

we knew it would earn at least $600. we had several other offers of the same amount after it sold from other random dealers. so we knew the auction would be at least that amount, but my guess is that when people offer you an amount it’s usually worth more to a collector/non-dealer.

[Retro Treasures WV]

He probably already had it sold. The real irony here would be if the person he had already sold it to was the Japanese buyer that won the auction. Wouldn’t that just be great?

[Retro Treasures WV]

Also, have you went back and checked the forums that were discussing the original sale? I’m sure they’ve had a field day with the auction too.

[Manateejaq]

Lots of interesting discussion this week. 🙂

November 19 – 25th 2017
Total items in store: Etsy 469 // Ebay 598 (Items not crossposted I list different types of things on Etsy and Ebay)
Items Sold: Etsy 28 // Ebay 21
Cost of items Sold: Etsy $70.68 // Ebay $66.90
Total Sales: Etsy $411.65 // Ebay $407.79
Highest Price Sold: $49 Masters of the Universe Blast Attack action figure
Average Price Sold: $16.72
Returns: 0
Number of items listed this week: 23 (listed at $279)

I was out of town visiting family most of last week which was great. I am thankful for the flexibility that selling on ebay gives. I left my shop active while I was away (just extended the handling time) and shipped a whole bunch of orders on Monday! 🙂

[Marie in Florida]

TSatt, thanks for the ideas. I sell clothing, shoes, vintage eyeglasses, fabric, ephemera, leather goods, books, Le Creuset pans, hats, costumes…. I have about 15% in auctions. Those I would switch around the picture and relist while I was away. My way of keeping a few listings new almost every day. Hey I just sold some water shoes!

[T-Satt]

My best advice at this point then would be to list, list, list. Sales were spotty when we first got serious at the 300 item level (our goal was a sale a day), and we starting hitting 1 per day around 500. Then our goal was $100 per day, then $200. Now we are trying to get to $2000 per week every week. The only part we can control is finding quality items and listing consistently.

Since you are in so many categories, it may be hard to ride that momentum wave (same brand sales or like item sales) like we do, but getting the size of your store up will get you more consistent sales, at least weekly.

Good luck and keep cranking!

[Temudgin]

I don’t know what I would have done about that jacket. I definitely have lost money in the past letting things go that I mispriced both on and off ebay, but it was always a matter of convenience and I never left that much money on the table. I am more tolerant of what some might see as ethical lapses in a business context following whiskey’s reasoning basically, whatever side of the transaction I am on. So I would agree with J&R’s decision.

As a lawyer, though, in addition the analysis of whiskey and ThriftShift I would think about a couple other issues. If I was a seller in a hypothetically similar situation and if I thought the buyer had a solid contract (that’s a big “if” despite ebay’s insistence that it is), I would worry about cover and getting “home-teamed” on jurisdiction. Under the UCC (to paraphrase), the aggrieved buyer could cover – purchase a substitute item – and then obtain a recovery from me for the difference in cost. I was able to get a substantial judgment for a client once on that very cause of action.

As for home team jurisdiction, the buyer could go into his court and argue that there is personal jurisdiction over me based on the single transaction which is the basis of the suit, even without me having substantial ties to that state. A judge sympathetic to the local’s loss at the hands of an out-of-stater might keep that case. I had cases where this happened as well (I’ve been on both sides of it).

But these are the worries of an obsessive lawyer, thankfully retired from that.

This was a great discussion going down a wide range of rabbit holes! The FOB talk reminded me of me stubbornly putting FOB Shipping Point terms in my listings for the longest time so I could wash my hands of the item once I put it in the mail despite ebay’s FOB Destination system. I sold everything at .99 auctions, as-is, no returns, if damaged in shipment it’s your problem. I don’t do that anymore and I don’t fight the system either.

[omfug]

Since you posted in Lawyerease Temudgin, LOL, a simple question is an item posted in good faith and purchased and paid for subject to ANY sort of binding contract? There has been some case law roughly established for private antique sales, several years ago an old Man brought a Titanic ticket into a local Antique auction house who outright bought it for the $1200 the buyer asked, it sold for in excess of $100,000 and the old man sued and won his case based on the supposed superior knowledge of the auctioneer (not that applicable here but it should be of interest to any pro dealer in antiques.)

[Julie B]

I see nothing wrong about canceling the sale. You made an error in the listing, it happens. Ebay has a system in place to weed out the sellers that abuse the cancellation system (i.e. canceling sales every time an auctioned item didn’t sell high enough). These sellers eventually rack up enough defects to be suspended. A one time cancellation shouldn’t rise to the level of an international incident. I haven’t read the string of comments above but this is the internet and commenters love to be sanctimonious on the internet.

[The Speckled Goat]

Linda – it did make perfect sense. I went in to check my seller ratings expecting to find a late shipment on the item that I did the switcheroo on and it doesn’t appear as a late shipment. So hopefully I avoided a bullet.

What I did learn from your post – by checking my seller ratings I found out that a more recent label I printed (within the time frame) which I later voided and made a new label the next day because the weight was wrong, ended up being a late shipment per eBay. So, lesson to me was don’t guess at the weight to print on time, thinking you can make changes later. Reprinting with correct postage later makes it a late shipment and a defect. Crap. Crap on a stick.

So indirectly, thanks for the heads up.
Caren
eBay ID: TheSpeckledGoatLLC

[sonia]

My initial reaction was that I would honor the original sale, even if it would mean giving up the opportunity to get $1M. When it’s an ehtical/moral issue, the amount of money shouldn’t matter. I try to make it a rule to not let money be the primary deciding factor in anything unless it’s the only important factor. And I thought of this situation along the lines of “I gave my word and I must honor it” and the auction gavel example. However, after reading the many interesting and informative responses here, I have changed my mind. The ebay system is clearly NOT like a live auction, for the many reasons given. It’s a bit more loosy-goosy all around with cancellations happening all the time, particularly on the part of the buyer. So now I feel much more comfortable saying “oops! Sorry – I have to cancel”, though realizing that it would be really annoying (and not tolerated by ebay) if this were a frequent occurrence.

Great thread!

[Habnab]

Hey, guys! Thanks for the shout-out. Always glad to help with a research project!

Last week was the worst online week I’ve had since September, when I started working traditional employment for 30 hours a week… though I still brought in a little income from eBay. This week has gone a bit better, and I scavenged and listed some pretty decent items as well. I’m still largely limited to 30-minute strikes after school before the kids get home. It’s surprising, but I’m still finding decent items on a pretty regular basis. I’m shooting for a minimum profit of about $50, although I don’t always get there. I’m more flexible if an item is really interesting or attractive to me, of course.

And since you asked, as for the jacket sale, I would have honored it. Not because I think J&R did anything illegal, immoral, unethical, or outside the standard mores of the community — I think 90% of people I know in real life the selling world would have canceled the sale and relisted it. But, knowing myself, I would have honored the sale. I think I would have felt guilty (not saying J&R or anyone else *should have* felt guilty, just that I *would have*, inherently, because of how I’m put together) if I’d cancelled. I would have wallowed in self-loathing about letting it go for $60, of course, but I would have done it. I can intellectually appreciate the arguments on both sides of this question, and — again — my argument has nothing to do with legality, ethics, or morals as written on paper or parsed out by philosophers or eBay attorneys. It has nothing to do with what I and my family can truly afford to leave on the table. It’s just what feels like the right thing to do, for me, in this limited scenario.

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